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The Crossroads...

Thank you for addressing the questions posed. Your first answer still avoids trying to apportion any blame to Poch.

Do you not think he has, at least to some extent, been the architect of our poor performances over nearly a year? Team selection, tactics, formation,fitness, substitutions and motivation are all down to him and him alone. He has so many top players available to him that his performance has been totally unacceptable for over 10 months now. Compounded by his frankly ludicrous public comments.

My answer really doesn’t. It answers that specific question.

Do I think Pochettino has been the ARCHITECT? No. Not at all. That would suggest he designed this entire scenario, in fact, his architectural plans were not addressed fully.

Do I think he has been a factor? Absolutely! I have offered criticisms but they get ignored in the polarization which occurs. Again, I think that when a dressing room runs with your energy as fuel then the person supplying that energy needs to step up and be aware. I have also felt a new member in the coaching staff would help re-energize. He has made some selections I also don’t fully understand.

I think suggesting he is solely responsible for fitness is a wild accusation myself.

I could turn the question the other way and ask if you think anyone else other than Pochettino is responsible for where we are at on the pitch.
 
That faith might really be put to the test tomorrow evening. We could well find ourselves one place and couple of points outside the relegation places.

the scary thing about that is based on performances over the last calendar year, it’s where many of us saw the team heading.

Everyone hails pochs achievement of getting the the cl final. Fine. But you can’t have it both ways: he is by the same logic taking a team with enough quality to get the champions league final into a relegation scrap. Is that great management?

We’ve been brick for ages, the rest of the league has only just noticed.
 
We also got to a Champions League final in that time. With a dead, unrefreshed squad that had no signings all season and the most players out of any team staying right till the end of the World Cup. Quite often a team that makes it that far in Europe by slightly over achieving to get there has the League form suffer. It happened to Liverpool the season before. Maybe not to the same extent but, they didn’t have no signings and the World Cup hangover to deal with.

I seem to recall last season you defended the club’s decision not to sign anyone. I believe the phrase you used was “maybe there is method in the madness”.
 
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I seem to recall last season you defended the club’s decision not to sign anyone. I believe the phrase you used was “maybe there is method in the madness”.

Yeah, and I don’t think I’ve denied that now we are in a downturn either?

I think maybe I am just a different type of fan to many. If I see that we have talented people in post, a strategy, and a clear path forward, I’m genuinely ok. I’ll obsessively watch us in terrible form because I will think that the club is in good hands long term. The periods in recent years where I’ve still watched but have been slightly less obsessive were the season Harry was hired and the season Sherwood took over. Because in both instances it felt like we were just saving ourselves to get back on track, even if we won games week to week it was clear we were recovering from a serious misstep and were outside of our plan.

But in all of Poch’s time in particular, I’ve felt like we’ve had clarity and strategy and that we are on a good path. But I also recognise that it is not always going to be easy, it is not always going to be a smooth ride up the curve without any bumps. This idea that for someone to be doing good at their job they need to effectively have no downturn over the long term is just unrealistic. Particularly when you are trying to pull off what we have pulled off, but without then just considering that other teams will be in upswings at times that we will be on downswings. I think in sport you can benefit by not being too influenced by the swings that naturally occur.

Regarding last season, I am just the type of person that appreciates that there are no perfect answers, just situations, context, and things to deal with, some that will be outside of our control. And that it won’t always be optimal just for us because we are in a competitive sport. So Poch clearly likes the alchemy of the squad to be that if anyone has a place, they will be expected to play. If a senior player is going to be here, they need to have games, they need to be called upon. And if we couldn’t shift the players we wanted to shift, would it be worse overall if we ended up signing players who who would then make it so others wouldn’t be used? That’s what I was arguing. It’s that the choice we went with may not have been perfect, but the alternative may have been worse, or it may have been someone else’s strategy, not the one we were going with. And maybe that method meant that we maintained a top 4 finish. Maybe if we signed say 5 players while not shifting any of the current ones, we would have finished 6th? Maybe the CL final run was the dying embers of mentality for a squad that liked and respected each other and knew it was their last chance to do something special before the rebuild?

Of course we wanted to move players out last year too and bring new ones in, but I always argued if we couldn’t do that, the best thing was probably to go with what we had. It represented clarity of thought and clear strategy. Things won’t always be perfect for us. And because things won’t always be perfect, it doesn’t mean the people in the leadership positions are doing bad in what is a competitive game. We could have made different choices, but there is no guarantee we would have benefited in the same way as we did from the ones that we made.
 
Apologies if this point has been made, as I’ve not read the whole of this thread, but the point was made about loyalty earlier. Specifically Poch being aghast at the lack of loyalty the players have shown him, while he has turned down Real last summer.

For me, the point is the players’ issues, I would suggest, are less with Poch and more with the club for being underpaid for so long. That’s why they’re running their contracts down and are refusing to be shunted out against their will. A free transfer will earn them a lot more than any contract we could offer or have offered, given the potential signing on fee at stake. I think they’re just tinkled off they’ve pretty much given up their peak years and have relatively little to show for it, both financially and in terms of medals.

Now, you can argue the players are part of the reason we’ve not got over the line with a trophy, but I think if Poch has taken this apparent lack of ‘loyalty’ as a personal affront, he needs to move on quickly. The beef the players have is with the club, not him.

That’s my reading of just one, albeit a significant one, issue of many that have and are impacting us at the moment.
 
Apologies if this point has been made, as I’ve not read the whole of this thread, but the point was made about loyalty earlier. Specifically Poch being aghast at the lack of loyalty the players have shown him, while he has turned down Real last summer.

For me, the point is the players’ issues, I would suggest, are less with Poch and more with the club for being underpaid for so long. That’s why they’re running their contracts down and are refusing to be shunted out against their will. A free transfer will earn them a lot more than any contract we could offer or have offered, given the potential signing on fee at stake. I think they’re just tinkled off they’ve pretty much given up their peak years and have relatively little to show for it, both financially and in terms of medals.

Now, you can argue the players are part of the reason we’ve not got over the line with a trophy, but I think if Poch has taken this apparent lack of ‘loyalty’ as a personal affront, he needs to move on quickly. The beef the players have is with the club, not him.

That’s my reading of just one, albeit a significant one, issue of many that have and are impacting us at the moment.


A really interesting take. I had not considered the residual bitterness which might exist at our wage ceiling. It makes a lot of sense and would add to the manager's issues. It would also dovetail with that sort which leaked out about agents seeking more cash for this amazon palaver. Also I'd agree re: Poch and personal vs club. My inclination would be that he is not taking it personally (would also play into why he still picks certain players), but we cannot know either way.

Appreciate this added take on matters. Interesting discussion points mate.
 
Yes, regardless of whether Poch is annoyed at a perceived lack of loyalty - I only posited that as someone alluded to him potentially feeling that way earlier - the players are probably really fudged off with the money situation. They’ve given their all and what has the club given them in return during their peak earning years? Not a whole heap. We all can speculate on the reasons for that - the stadium - but it won’t change a lot for those that have been continually pushed to their limits physically and are severely underpaid compared to their peers.

As you say, just another of many issues outside of Poch’s control he’s had to deal with.

For the record, my position is that I’m desperate for him to turn it around and have a very strong emotional connection to him like you do Steff. However, I worry we may get into a situation that is getting increasingly hard to recover from and we may need to act before it’s too late.

No way Jose though!! For me, I need a manager I can identify with, rather than a win-at-all-costs—preening-narcissist. If that means not winning as much / anything, so be it.
 
Yes, regardless of whether Poch is annoyed at a perceived lack of loyalty - I only posited that as someone alluded to him potentially feeling that way earlier - the players are probably really fudged off with the money situation. They’ve given their all and what has the club given them in return during their peak earning years? Not a whole heap. We all can speculate on the reasons for that - the stadium - but it won’t change a lot for those that have been continually pushed to their limits physically and are severely underpaid compared to their peers.

As you say, just another of many issues outside of Poch’s control he’s had to deal with.

For the record, my position is that I’m desperate for him to turn it around and have a very strong emotional connection to him like you do Steff. However, I worry we may get into a situation that is getting increasingly hard to recover from and we may need to act before it’s too late.

No way Jose though!! For me, I need a manager I can identify with, rather than a win-at-all-costs—preening-narcissist. If that means not winning as much / anything, so be it.

I agree mate.
I would be prepared to sacrifice the season in order to roar next season, alas (and I said it in the summer) Chelski's appt is an excellent one and they will go from strength to strength whilst I fear that the goons could replace dingdong Emery and move forth too. Personally I'd gamble, but I appreciate that we are approaching a rubicon. For me it isn't this weekend, more like end of Dec...
And yes. On Jose I could not agree more. "Winning" like that clam does is not what I believe life is about (cue an avalanche of "loser" comments hahahahahahah)...
 
I agree mate.
I would be prepared to sacrifice the season in order to roar next season, alas (and I said it in the summer) Chelski's appt is an excellent one and they will go from strength to strength whilst I fear that the goons could replace dingdong Emery and move forth too. Personally I'd gamble, but I appreciate that we are approaching a rubicon. For me it isn't this weekend, more like end of Dec...
And yes. On Jose I could not agree more. "Winning" like that clam does is not what I believe life is about (cue an avalanche of "loser" comments hahahahahahah)...

I agree. As I have continually said, Poch should be given till Xmas to see if he is capable of turning it around. Pleased you are now also prepared to put some sort of timetable on it.
 
I agree mate.
I would be prepared to sacrifice the season in order to roar next season, alas (and I said it in the summer) Chelski's appt is an excellent one and they will go from strength to strength whilst I fear that the goons could replace dingdong Emery and move forth too. Personally I'd gamble, but I appreciate that we are approaching a rubicon. For me it isn't this weekend, more like end of Dec...
And yes. On Jose I could not agree more. "Winning" like that clam does is not what I believe life is about (cue an avalanche of "loser" comments hahahahahahah)...

And I think that's why this conversation for the most part has run it's course.

- Poch has to take a lot of blame for where we are, but circumstances have not helped him (I think nobody disagrees here?)

The disagreement is

- Is he able to turn it around at all?
- How much time are we willing to give him?

For me leaving aside the fact that history doesn't suggest the first piece is likely, the more important piece is I'm not willing to sacrifice a season for a person at the detriment of the club. I genuinely believe a decent managerial appointment now will allow us to take advantage of the bounce, give us a good chance of keeping top 4 (outside of Pool/City, everyone is a bit messy) and maybe even a FA Cup run.
 
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