"Talking 4th/Get Real"

[Didn'tMindGraham]

Is Tim right? Given our current financial clout, players, recent history etc are we being unrealistic expecting to finish 4th? I certainly expect a better standard of football than the rotten stuff we've had the last two years, but how bad are things really?
I don't want to bang on about the early premier league days when I first started supporting spurs because the bar was pretty low tbh but there is little doubt, surely, we are an entirely different animal since then. Our best players are now coveted by Real Madrid and the like rather than teams like Ipswich and Charlton. We are now consistently in Europe, albeit the hugely-diluted former UEFA cup, and, even in a hugely traumatic season are still in the top 5.
We obviously all want more, but should we EXPECT more? Right now? My view at the start of the year was this was a one-off chance to throw big money at the squad a la City and Cheatsea and, as such, our best chance to make a prolonged surge at the top of the table for the foreseeable future. That now looks somewhat optimistic and possibly naive, but, looking from outside, have we really got that much to moan about? Have we gone all big-time after our Champions League adventure? My initial response is yes, although as I intimated earlier this could be due to my humble beginnings with the likes of Jason Dozzell and David Kerslake.

At the final whistle yesterday I thought (and have done since Harry left tbh) "what is the point? We just go round in circles", and have begun to feel exhausted with the constant disappointment. But in the cold light of day, is 5th our level, our par? Are we genuinely underachieving against the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool, as hard to accept as that is?

Is it wrong to want to accept we are the "best of the rest" instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and risk "doing a Leeds"?

 

[Luda2013]

No we've been really unlucky these past few seasons - small margins. We have to keep going for it.

We spent £100m plus last summer, we should expect to be fighting for it with real intent

 

[Didn'tMindGraham]

No we've been really unlucky these past few seasons - small margins. We have to keep going for it.

We spent £100m plus last summer, we should expect to be fighting for it with real intent

Yours sounds a pragmatic view: we 've missed out marginally in the last few years and should keep plugging away. Do you view that as unlucky or failure, heads must roll etc?

 

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

I don't think we should be qualifying for the champs league, look at the top teams, Chelsea City n utd can spend a £100m every summer if they wanted, we had to sell a special player to enable us to spend that type of money. Arsenal as much as we hate them have one of the best scouting systems and spend huge amounts on wages to try n keep their best players. We and now Liverpool r the best of the rest.

Every few seasons we might make 4th through the other teams rebuilding I.e man utd this season

Nothing wrong in aiming high just we haven't got the financial muscle to make that next step to keep us in the top 4

 

[chicken_badge]

Arsenal have been punching above their weight in recent years - albeit as "title contenders" so have Everton. No reason why we can't either. Spurs, Everton and Liverpool have shown there is nothing magical about "top 4"; you can break the status quo.

Maintaining it year in, year out then yes that is an unreasonable expectation at the moment. We need either a sugar daddy, or a new stadium, or both. But even then again, maybe this season will be a turning point. There are 5 other great clubs out there who now "expect" to finish top 4 and obviously all can't. I do think the Europa League is gaining a bit more credibility on these shores - and watch how that game will change this time next year, when winner gets a CL spot.

 

[paxtonwolf]

A few seasons back, every August I always to used predict we would finish 6th because I believed we were the 6th best team in the league, recently that has moved to 5th because I felt we had moved ahead of Liverpool.
Those 2 seasons we finished 4th. 09/10 we were good, very good and City hadnt quite got going. and 11/12 Chelsea were poor in the League and we deservedly finished above them.

I think it is a tad unrealistic to expect to finish in the Top 4 and it will always need one of the big boys to have a bad season. This time it was United, but Liverpool have been exceptional, to cancel that out, so we are we I would expect us to be.

Having said that, how we are currently 5th still baffles me because I dont think we are playing anything like the 5th best team in the Premier League. Some days we play like the mid-90s and early noughties dross I used to watch, which is the most annoying thing because our current squad p#sses all over those squads.

The CL season raised some fans expectations and we got a taste of the good life, but for me we, currently, dont have a team that should expect a Top 4 finish each year

 

[Luda2013]

Yours sounds a pragmatic view: we 've missed out marginally in the last few years and should keep plugging away. Do you view that as unlucky or failure, heads must roll etc?

Mainly bad luck I'd say. We need stability. It's a very tough league to be in. Look at United struggling to keep pace

 

[squidseye]

I've been happy to give Sherwood his chance at the helm, and his results on the whole have been about the same has they were with AVB. But giving up on competing - that's not something I'd want the manager of my club to be saying tbh. Competing is why we're all into the sport, isn't it?

What is that Bill Nicholson quote again? It's better to aim for 5th and fail? I didn't think so. What would be the point? I can't see these remarks going down well with the board.

 

[chicken_badge]

Having said that, how we are currently 5th still baffles me because I dont think we are playing anything like the 5th best team in the Premier League. Some days we play like the mid-90s and early noughties dross I used to watch, which is the most annoying thing because our current squad p#sses all over those squads.

The CL season raised some fans expectations and we got a taste of the good life, but for me we, currently, dont have a team that should expect a Top 4 finish each year

Totally agree with this PW. I know Arsenal have a game in hand now, I know we are running out of matches. But we're still within 6 points of them, win the NLD and it's 3. Liverpool, as irresistible as they have been at times are only a little less erratic than us in the league, as is reflected by points. I don't think we will get top 4, as there is a gulf in class between us and Liverpool/Arsenal. But somehow, we are still in the mix. The fact that the media have been obsessed with the only angle being "will Man U get top 4?" means that the fact that, points wise, we are still well in the running is lost.

Traded in my Playstation 3 last week with a view to getting a PS4 this week and so resorted to playing an old console with a footie game from about 2004. Ten years ago. Up front was Kanoute and Keane, fine, Defoe on the bench. But after that our best attacking options were Slabber and Barnard. Midfield was so bland: Michael Brown, Dean Marney, Jonny Jackson. Then we had Doherty (remember when we played him as a striker?), Kelly, Gardner.... and that South African we brought in to get Levy World Cup tickets.

And now we turn our noses up at, without doubt, hugely talented players in Soldado and Lamela. We need to either learn from Rebrov - ship them out early and take a hit - or Bale - persist, nurture, and let the world class talent emerge. We've got a class outfit and maybe what we need isn't a top 4 finish, but a trophy. These punctuate a club's history far more effectively than impressive league campaigns.

Two massive games this week.... but perhaps one is significantly bigger than the other....

 

[Nexus1967]

Its true what chicken_badge says that withresults going our way we could still be in with a shout of top 4 but being a Spurs fan of many years I am usually a bit pessimistic to say the least lol.

Unfortuneately I am resigned to us being a "top 6" club. I feel we missed an opportunity this season by spending our money on several average players instead of say 2 or 3 top quality players. But theres our problem, because the top quality players will not come to Spurs as we cannot offer CL football and top wages. Every year we can only hope that we get a youngster who will develop into a top quality player like Bale.

The sad fact is that unless we get huge slices of luck it will be hard to break into the top 4 and sustain that. next year it will be even harder, as I believe **** and Liverpool have already got better squads than us and with their wage structure and buying power because they will be in the CL next season they will be able to attract better players than us. Also Man U will no doubt spend big in the summer to re-build.

If we get yet another new manager it will mean another big turnover of staff and another period of "rebuilding". I do think the Premier League is over rated though, as Paxtonwolf said in a previous post how we are 5th is unbelievable considering our performances this year. At least under Sherwood it is not as boring as it was under AVB, but some of our games this year have been dire especially at home.

Top 6 it is then, any higher will be a bonus but I am not putting money on it.

 

[paxtonwolf]

Totally agree with this PW. I know Arsenal have a game in hand now, I know we are running out of matches. But we're still within 6 points of them, win the NLD and it's 3. Liverpool, as irresistible as they have been at times are only a little less erratic than us in the league, as is reflected by points. I don't think we will get top 4, as there is a gulf in class between us and Liverpool/Arsenal. But somehow, we are still in the mix. The fact that the media have been obsessed with the only angle being "will Man U get top 4?" means that the fact that, points wise, we are still well in the running is lost.

Traded in my Playstation 3 last week with a view to getting a PS4 this week and so resorted to playing an old console with a footie game from about 2004. Ten years ago. Up front was Kanoute and Keane, fine, Defoe on the bench. But after that our best attacking options were Slabber and Barnard. Midfield was so bland: Michael Brown, Dean Marney, Jonny Jackson. Then we had Doherty (remember when we played him as a striker?), Kelly, Gardner.... and that South African we brought in to get Levy World Cup tickets.

And now we turn our noses up at, without doubt, hugely talented players in Soldado and Lamela. We need to either learn from Rebrov - ship them out early and take a hit - or Bale - persist, nurture, and let the world class talent emerge. We've got a class outfit and maybe what we need isn't a top 4 finish, but a trophy. These punctuate a club's history far more effectively than impressive league campaigns.

Two massive games this week.... but perhaps one is significantly bigger than the other....[/QUOTE]

My GHod, I still have that season on Championship Manager somewhere, I remember having to play Jamie Slabber upfront in the NLD due to an injury-crisis and he bagged a brace to win it for us....thats when you know its not real.
The days of Doherty,Johnnie Jackson,Stephen Kelly, and as you suggested Mbulelo Mabizela

The last line of your quote. Agree, although I would say both are important as each other both for differing reasons.
The Benfica match is the avenue to our only hope of silverware this season. I want to see how our players react to yesterday initially.
Whereas a NLD needs no building-up for the fans, we all know what its about, do the team though?

If our players cant get 'up' and perform for a glory-glory European tie and a NLD, then there is no hope.

Biggest 4 days of the season coming up, by a country mile

 

[paxtonwolf]

Its true what chicken_badge says that withresults going our way we could still be in with a shout of top 4 but being a Spurs fan of many years I am usually a bit pessimistic to say the least lol.

Unfortuneately I am resigned to us being a "top 6" club. I feel we missed an opportunity this season by spending our money on several average players instead of say 2 or 3 top quality players. But theres our problem, because the top quality players will not come to Spurs as we cannot offer CL football and top wages. Every year we can only hope that we get a youngster who will develop into a top quality player like Bale.

The sad fact is that unless we get huge slices of luck it will be hard to break into the top 4 and sustain that. next year it will be even harder, as I believe **** and Liverpool have already got better squads than us and with their wage structure and buying power because they will be in the CL next season they will be able to attract better players than us. Also Man U will no doubt spend big in the summer to re-build.

If we get yet another new manager it will mean another big turnover of staff and another period of "rebuilding". I do think the Premier League is over rated though, as Paxtonwolf said in a previous post how we are 5th is unbelievable considering our performances this year. At least under Sherwood it is not as boring as it was under AVB, but some of our games this year have been dire especially at home.

Top 6 it is then, any higher will be a bonus but I am not putting money on it.

Cant disagree with that point, although we do it time and time again.

Jan 11 window, we dont improve the squad when in a great league position and end up fading away.
August 2012 window, the chance to get AVB the signing he really wanted, Moutinho, and we mucked it up
but for me the biggest missed oppurtunity of recent years was August 2010. We had finally qualified to compete in the CL and granted we brought in VDV and a freebie in Gallas, but we should have done far better, we missed a big big chance that season to finally make the next step

 

[El Guepardo]

I think I can argue the point for the quality of our signings. Soldado was one of the best strikers in Spain, a lethal finisher and someone who 99% of us in here were happy to see arriving at the club. He cost anywhere between £15m - £26m depending on which source you believe & the add-ons etc

Lamela was one of the highest rated youngsters in World football before he joined us. He was likened by many, including myself, to be an ideal replacement for Bale. No one was suggesting that he was an identical like for like player but instead were praising his ability.

Paulinho had just won the best played Award at the Confederations Cup. He was targeted by Real Madrid and yet we managed to sign him which was recognised as being a significant coup by many.

Now each of those three are being regarded as average signings. Yes, for differing reasons it hasn't worked out for those players, but I'd hardly say that they were regarded as average players when we signed them. Now once again the history books are being rewritten.

 

[indianspur]

i dont expect 4th......but what i want is to see is a Spurs team that has bottle, a team that plays like it has trained together, a team that is defensively strong but more importantly passes and moves quickly and incisively. I want to see us play attacking football, score lots of goals, and entertain the fans

 

[Nexus1967]

Cant disagree with that point, although we do it time and time again.

Jan 11 window, we dont improve the squad when in a great league position and end up fading away.
August 2012 window, the chance to get AVB the signing he really wanted, Moutinho, and we mucked it up
but for me the biggest missed oppurtunity of recent years was August 2010. We had finally qualified to compete in the CL and granted we brought in VDV and a freebie in Gallas, but we should have done far better, we missed a big big chance that season to finally make the next step

This point is probably one of the things that frustrate us the most, we almost always seem to miss these chances, but I would rather that than see what happened to Leeds happen to us. There are so many clubs in dire financial straits after trying to "keep up with the big boys" in the prem. Look at QPR, if they dont get back in the prem how can they sustain the mad wages they pay. I would rather see us mid table than relegated with huge debt.

 

[paxtonwolf]

i dont expect 4th......but what i want is to see is a Spurs team that has bottle, a team that plays like it has trained together, a team that is defensively strong but more importantly passes and moves quickly and incisively. I want to see us play attacking football, score lots of goals, and entertain the fans

And thats it, in a nutshell.

Okay we may not win as many matches because we arent holding on for a 1-0 win, but I am convinced we would have that feelgood factor back at the Lane, like the Jol/Harry days. We were still finishing 5th, but it was really enjoyable coming down to the Lane, these days we drive down with trepidation wondering what we are going to witness and it shouldnt be like that

 

[paxtonwolf]

This point is probably one of the things that frustrate us the most, we almost always seem to miss these chances, but I would rather that than see what happened to Leeds happen to us. There are so many clubs in dire financial straits after trying to "keep up with the big boys" in the prem. Look at QPR, if they dont get back in the prem how can they sustain the mad wages they pay. I would rather see us mid table than relegated with huge debt.

Although I dont think it will be quite mid-table, I do think we may have to endure a few seasons of 6th-8th in the near future until the new stadium is built and paid for, unless our scouting system uncovers a few gems, because I fear we are losing a few 'big guns' this summer and they wont be fully replaced

 

[lurker of old]

Ok let's say that March is a nightmare and we were to miss out on the Europa League next season. . Would we care, or would we do better in the real league, without the distraction? Maybe even have a decent FA cup run. The fact is that the only time we got into the CL, it was after a season without the Europa League....

 

[jts1882]

We have lost five games following Europa League matches, including the home losses to West Ham, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Liverpool (Arsenal and Norwich were other two). Our only other losses were the two against City and Chelsea yesterday.

Without the EL our strategy of eeking out 1-0 wins against mid-table and lower teams and losing by a bucketful to the top teams would be working.

 

[Rossi22]

Ok let's say that March is a nightmare and we were to miss out on the Europa League next season. . Would we care, or would we do better in the real league, without the distraction? Maybe even have a decent FA cup run. The fact is that the only time we got into the CL, it was after a season without the Europa League....

I think we'll be too far behind next season regardless of the Europa League. I'd say we'd probably have a better chance of qualifying for the CL through winning the EL than getting it through the league next year.