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Tactics Thread

Just for fun, I've analysed the 13 lineups that have been suggested so far in this thread. (At least the 13 that I can see, from posters that I haven't ignored :D and not including Steff's latest, because it looks too mental :D). My findings:

- No-one has suggested the same lineup (and I took the GK out of the equation)
- 3 back four lineups have each been suggested twice - the remaining 7 suggested back fours have all been different
> Sissoko - Toby - Jan - Davies
> Foyth - Toby - Jan - Rose
> Foyth - Sanchez - Jan - Sessegnon
- Just one front six has been suggested twice - the remaining 11 suggested front sixes have all been different
> Dier - Ndombele - Lo Celso - Alli - Son - Kane

As I said before, for me this just illustrates that whatever formation / lineup Poch goes with, if we lose he will be criticised by the majority of posters because he didn't go with what they think he should have done. But in all likelihood everyone disagrees with each other too. I'm not saying by any means that Poch is therefore free of criticism for his lineups, but I think it is worth bearing in mind that everyone has different views on what it should be!

Here's the individual player counts, for anyone who's interested. It's really only Kane, Son, Ndomble and Jan who should start by consensus:

upload_2019-11-18_18-5-6.png
 
Interesting video as usual from Nouman/ SteveAWOL.
A key moment for me was when he said "the front 3 Son/Kane/Moura were [[fannying around in space, not pressing anyone, not marking anyone, because they were]] cutting out passing lanes and forcing Zouma to play it long".

Not sure that is our best option. Also, our system was so reliant on Aurier being Superman, and he is far from that. Nice to see Aurier pulling Rudiger out of position so that Kane/Son could run into that gap IF Alli is passed the ball.
 
everyone says that Lampard out did Jose last week in tactics. But for me it was not surprise. Lampard spent years playing under Jose. He knows better than most that he analysis the oppositions usual formation, player positions and patterns of play. So what was the easiest thing to do to combat that? just change up your system to a 3-5-2 and completely ruin all the work he would have know that Mourinhio had done in the week prior.

Whilst it shows that Lampard knows a lot about Mourinhio it also shows that Jose can set up a system or tactics that are too reliant on what the opposition were doing. The fact we came in 2-0 down kind of meant we cant tell if the second half would have panned out any better. Once he had a chance to see the tactics being used by Chelsea and to counter them himself.

Chelski losing 1-0 at home to Bournemouth does not prove Lampard is bad a tactics, like this result does not prove he is good at them. It was more a case of Him knowing Jose so well.
 
Sandman said:
everyone says that Lampard out did Jose last week in tactics. But for me it was not surprise. Lampard spent years playing under Jose. He knows better than most that he analysis the oppositions usual formation, player positions and patterns of play. So what was the easiest thing to do to combat that? just change up your system to a 3-5-2 and completely ruin all the work he would have know that Mourinhio had done in the week prior.

Whilst it shows that Lampard knows a lot about Mourinhio it also shows that Jose can set up a system or tactics that are too reliant on what the opposition were doing. The fact we came in 2-0 down kind of meant we cant tell if the second half would have panned out any better. Once he had a chance to see the tactics being used by Chelsea and to counter them himself.

Chelski losing 1-0 at home to Bournemouth does not prove Lampard is bad a tactics, like this result does not prove he is good at them. It was more a case of Him knowing Jose so well.
Click to expand...
And they lost to West Ham
Again that was a game they should have won apparently
I’m still convinced we will finish above them
 
Sandman said:
everyone says that Lampard out did Jose last week in tactics. But for me it was not surprise. Lampard spent years playing under Jose. He knows better than most that he analysis the oppositions usual formation, player positions and patterns of play. So what was the easiest thing to do to combat that? just change up your system to a 3-5-2 and completely ruin all the work he would have know that Mourinhio had done in the week prior.

Whilst it shows that Lampard knows a lot about Mourinhio it also shows that Jose can set up a system or tactics that are too reliant on what the opposition were doing. The fact we came in 2-0 down kind of meant we cant tell if the second half would have panned out any better. Once he had a chance to see the tactics being used by Chelsea and to counter them himself.

Chelski losing 1-0 at home to Bournemouth does not prove Lampard is bad a tactics, like this result does not prove he is good at them. It was more a case of Him knowing Jose so well.
Click to expand...

Disagree, Lampard and OGS are the same brick

- Lack tactical flexibility or know how to truly motivate players

Unfortunately for us, it also translates into

- They play their best against "big/derby" games because the players are self motivated
- Those games have the added bonus of the opposition coming at them and they can use the youth/pace they have on counter/into space.

Against any side that sits back and low blocks, both are fudged and we will finish above both of them
 
Raziel said:
Disagree, Lampard and OGS are the same brick

- Lack tactical flexibility or know how to truly motivate players

Unfortunately for us, it also translates into

- They play their best against "big/derby" games because the players are self motivated
- Those games have the added bonus of the opposition coming at them and they can use the youth/pace they have on counter/into space.

Against any side that sits back and low blocks, both are fudged and we will finish above both of them
Click to expand...


And that for me highlights the major issue in our squad, a lack of belief or winning mentality.
The absolute brick show we put in for ever big game is shocking.

Tottenham, they always let you down.
 
I really hope Jose has found the system which suits the players (maybe by chance) after bringing on GLC yesterday.

Sess coming in for Son didnt work as he played a lot deeper and was pretty ineffective as a LWB (I actually don't think he played any further forward than what Rose does as LB in a flat 4).

I would like to see us settle on a 4231 with Son left and GLC right. That would be a good mix of keeping the ball (GLC/Dele/Kane) and impact (Son). GLC also compliments Aurier as he takes players inside which invites Aurier on.

All we need then is solve the CM/CM issue. I think we all want to see Tanguy succeed there but that's going to take time in a 2. I'm not sure of the answer tbh.

The good thing about the above setup is it can easily become 433 if needed with GLC coming in to help the 2 Cm's and connect the midfield to the front 3 of Dele/Kane/Son.
 
Sandman said:
everyone says that Lampard out did Jose last week in tactics. But for me it was not surprise. Lampard spent years playing under Jose. He knows better than most that he analysis the oppositions usual formation, player positions and patterns of play. So what was the easiest thing to do to combat that? just change up your system to a 3-5-2 and completely ruin all the work he would have know that Mourinhio had done in the week prior.

Whilst it shows that Lampard knows a lot about Mourinhio it also shows that Jose can set up a system or tactics that are too reliant on what the opposition were doing. The fact we came in 2-0 down kind of meant we cant tell if the second half would have panned out any better. Once he had a chance to see the tactics being used by Chelsea and to counter them himself.

Chelski losing 1-0 at home to Bournemouth does not prove Lampard is bad a tactics, like this result does not prove he is good at them. It was more a case of Him knowing Jose so well.
Click to expand...

There was actually a bit of pre-match video that I half caught where Lampard was discussing what Spurs had done in the previous match. It really showed he knew what to expect and countered us perfectly. Like you say it doesn't necessarily show him being especially tactically aware but it did show that he was tactically prepared.

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Seems like loads of teams are playing 433. In possession they might allow a full back to push on a bit, making it 343.

Feels like we start with 4231 and expect a full back to go alllll the way up top so we end up with 325 in possession which is unbalanced and crowded... then the idiot cannot of course get back to defend properly as he has been right up top... this is the root of our evil.
 
Bullet said:
Seems like loads of teams are playing 433. In possession they might allow a full back to push on a bit, making it 343.

Feels like we start with 4231 and expect a full back to go alllll the way up top so we end up with 325 in possession which is unbalanced and crowded... then the idiot cannot of course get back to defend properly as he has been right up top... this is the root of our evil.
Click to expand...

I’ve been thinking about this and actually I think in the last few games we haven’t been asking Aurier to push as high to make a genuine 5 in attack. The first couple of games we did and I thought our football was better for it, and we’ve since tempered it. He’s now playing more like a wingback but for those first games he was a winger.

and it helped with the direct football as he is good in the air. But now we seem to have lost the mojo ever so slightly.
 
Bishop said:
There was actually a bit of pre-match video that I half caught where Lampard was discussing what Spurs had done in the previous match. It really showed he knew what to expect and countered us perfectly. Like you say it doesn't necessarily show him being especially tactically aware but it did show that he was tactically prepared.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Fapatalk
Click to expand...
Preparation and also flexibility
Lampard had tried the 3-4-3 already this season and it didn’t work as well a stage opposition actually turned up and didn’t give away two goals.
Our set up has been the same in every game the Right sided wonky 4-2-3-1
But I genuinely think we could see a change tomo with the suspensions subject to NDombele being willing
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I’ve been thinking about this and actually I think in the last few games we haven’t been asking Aurier to push as high to make a genuine 5 in attack. The first couple of games we did and I thought our football was better for it, and we’ve since tempered it. He’s now playing more like a wingback but for those first games he was a winger.

and it helped with the direct football as he is good in the air. But now we seem to have lost the mojo ever so slightly.
Click to expand...
It’s because everyone in the team knows they will have to cover him at some point so their more cautious. Als9 means a lot of our play is lop sided
 
3241 is how we were playing during our better spell vs Brighton. GLC and Dele central with Eriksen dictating from deeper.

I honestly think that long term N'Dombele has it in his locker to dictate from there.
 
Since any discussion of Mourinho weird changes in tactics is swamped by nonsense to do with Poch, "time" and transfers, I'll give it ago here.

Mourinho started out doing very simple things and the results were good. He kept Sissoko away from central midfield saying he doesnt see him as central midfielder. He said he sees Sessegnon as forward player. He changed the entire formation so that Aurier didnt have to defend. He talked about having a defensive player in midfield along side a passer. He played Alli right behind Kane to get the best out him.

It was a return to playing players in their best position and dropping anyone that didnt fit in the formation. Previously Poch seemed to pick with 11 favoured played and just squeezed them in wherever.

Now we're back to playing without a defensive midfielder (NDombele isnt this, Sissoko isn't this). We have Eriksen in central midfield? He have two players that cant defend as full backs. We have Alli turning up on the left again when he picks that 433 formation he has strayed into.

There no longer seems to be a consistent coherent plan to how we are approaching the game.

It all started with the Chelsea game. Gone was the asymmetric 4231. Instead an asymmetric 433 that didnt work with Alli playing much deeper.
Then Brighton full 343 that turned into a 541 alot. Alli again more out the left than in the middle. We simply didnt have the number going forward here attacks often containing only Alli, Lucas and Kane.
Then Norwich Lucas dropped and the 343 turned into a 352. This was even worse. Kane and Alli isolated. Eriksen and Lo Celso looked like they had no idea were they should be in the 3 behind. Changed second half to 4231. But with Sessegnon at left back. No protection for the centre halfs.
Then Southampton, the all attacking 4231 was back. Wing backs as full backs. Eriksen and NDombele as central midfielders.

I've no idea what Mourinho is anymore. He was one of the most safe managers around when it came to selections from game to game. Now he seems to be changing selections and formations until something works.
 
Serious questions people, with the exception of Dormund in the CL when was the last time we actually excelled playing with a back 3 and wing backs? I cannot actually think of another one.
 
NaijaSpurs said:
Serious questions people, with the exception of Dormund in the CL when was the last time we actually excelled playing with a back 3 and wing backs? I cannot actually think of another one.
Click to expand...
We had a good run playing three center backs mid season the year we finished second. With Dembele and Wanyama in central midfield and Eriksen and Alli as inside forwards behind Kane.
Recently it has rarely worked out though, and when we play 5-3-2/3-5-2, like we have done recently, we are nomally outnumbered in midfield, which makes it difficult to dominate games. In the last three games we have started with three center back and been equally brick in all three first halves. Then when we have changed to a back four, we have at least looked better on all three ocassions. Maybe it's possible to learn something from that.
I think Mourinho uses the formation because he doesn't trust our full backs, but it isn't working out. It alo leads to Alli playing either too deep or as a striker, where he is not as effective as when playing behind the striker.
 
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