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Politics, politics, politics

I was right to confront Jeremy Corbyn over Labour’s antisemitism

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...emy-corbyn-labour-antisemitism-margaret-hodge
I think @the dza linked to that earlier. It's very well written and I agree with pretty much all of it.

Linked from that article is this too, a little older but goes to show just how little Corbyn cares about anti-Semitism when it gets in the way of Israel hatred:
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...s-furious-corbyn-evasions-labour-antisemitism
 
Agree with all of that except the bolded bit.

Islamaphobia is absolutely acceptable because there is none of the hereditary component that is included in the term "Jewish." Being a muslamic infidel is entirely by choice. A stupid choice and one that deserves ridicule. Being Jewish (in all but the strict religious sense) is hereditary and not something over which a person has a choice.

Coming back to this after thinking of something over night.

On this definition, you would be quite happy to see anti-Semitic abuse aimed at my aunty who converted when she married my uncle.
 
Coming back to this after thinking of something over night.

On this definition, you would be quite happy to see anti-Semitic abuse aimed at my aunty who converted when she married my uncle.
I would normally, yes. Not because of any dislike for your aunty, but she has made a choice to do that and it therefore shouldn't be a protected class (although I'm going to specify why being Jewish is different later).

We should protect that over which people have no choice - Age, race, gender, sexuality, etc. But if someone chooses to have an imaginary friend as an adult, or is fat due to overeating, decides to wear an Arsenal shirt - anything like that is far game.

As Margaret Hodge alluded to, antisemitism is a fairly unique case. Initially Jewish meant a member of a religion and I wouldn't protect it if that's all it meant. But it's entirely possible to be a secular Jew due to the unique history of the Jewish people. It's somewhere between a race a nationality and a religion and so we need to protect it like any other race or nationality.

Obviously there's one exception to the "born this way" argument - gingers. They should be eradicated before they destroy the gene pool.
 
I would normally, yes. Not because of any dislike for your aunty, but she has made a choice to do that and it therefore shouldn't be a protected class (although I'm going to specify why being Jewish is different later).

We should protect that over which people have no choice - Age, race, gender, sexuality, etc. But if someone chooses to have an imaginary friend as an adult, or is fat due to overeating, decides to wear an Arsenal shirt - anything like that is far game.

As Margaret Hodge alluded to, antisemitism is a fairly unique case. Initially Jewish meant a member of a religion and I wouldn't protect it if that's all it meant. But it's entirely possible to be a secular Jew due to the unique history of the Jewish people. It's somewhere between a race a nationality and a religion and so we need to protect it like any other race or nationality.

Obviously there's one exception to the "born this way" argument - gingers. They should be eradicated before they destroy the gene pool.

I'm an atheist, I have no problem with challenging people's faith when it is in context of of a discussion on that subject. It should also be possible to discuss faith without being a clam.

Faith should not be used as a reason for discrimination, abuse or ad hominem attacks.
 
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I'm an atheist, I have no problem with challenging people's faith when it is in context of of a discussion on that subject.

Faith should not be used as a reason for discrimination, abuse or ad hominem attacks.
Nobody should be abused or attacked, but I think we need to be careful of protecting religion the way we do race, for example. If that happens then the stain of religion will never be cleaned from humanity.

I think it's ok to discriminate based on religion though. I can discriminate against stupid people, I can discriminate against fat people, religion shouldn't be protected from that.
 
Nobody should be abused or attacked, but I think we need to be careful of protecting religion the way we do race, for example. If that happens then the stain of religion will never be cleaned from humanity.

I think it's ok to discriminate based on religion though. I can discriminate against stupid people, I can discriminate against fat people, religion shouldn't be protected from that.

I think that you are wrong. Someone abusing my aunty and uncle for being Jewish had exactly the same intent and exactly the same impact. That she converted does not reduce that or make the abuse any more justified.
 
Nobody should be abused or attacked, but I think we need to be careful of protecting religion the way we do race, for example. If that happens then the stain of religion will never be cleaned from humanity.

I think it's ok to discriminate based on religion though. I can discriminate against stupid people, I can discriminate against fat people, religion shouldn't be protected from that.
Don't forget scousers :D
 
Yeah, I don't mean the result of the vote in isolation -- but what he's saying about, basically, having to be in the EEA to be a part of the regulatory system for medicines. Almost as if the government, by binding themselves by legislation to be part of the EMA, are binding themselves to EEA membership.

Isnt that just a rooster up though? We need the ability to leave the EEA, whether or not if it is desirable.

If we dont, then we are just hamstrung in negotiations because a Norway deal is about as far out of the EU as we can get. Which is fudging pointless.

The EU have bullied us through this process, and we have been too weak to stand up to them - what do you think theyll do when they realise we just shot our selves in the foot?

I get you want to remain - but objectively - this is just a stupid move to make, surely you would agree?

And, on a higher level, I still dont understand why it must be bound by the EEA anyway. Surely some things, like medicine, should transend those kind of boundaries and allow for more collaboration globally anyway?
 
Plans are being drawn up to issue millions of permits so Britons can drive on EU roads after Brexit.

Up to seven million International Driving Permits could be needed inside a year if the UK and the EU do not agree to mutually recognise licences, the National Audit Office (NAO) says.

The public spending watchdog warned that "detailed delivery plans" had not yet been completed.

But the government told it the project was "deliverable".



And this is another thing that should be simply a non-story.

We have a comprehensive driving test, theory test, and instruction. For what possible reason could this be an issue? And yet - lets all make a drama out of something that shouldnt even come up in the news....

For the billionth time, we are currently part of the EU. This means, unlike other "3rd nation" states, we are actually PERFECTLY aligned with the EU and its standards across the board.

If I am free to go drive in France now, why shouldnt I be next year? Its stupidity like this that really frustrates me. Of all the things we should be worrying about this should be little more than a memo

UK - "So, licences - theres no issue now, lets just recognise each others?"
EU - "Of course. Next...."
 
Plans are being drawn up to issue millions of permits so Britons can drive on EU roads after Brexit.

Up to seven million International Driving Permits could be needed inside a year if the UK and the EU do not agree to mutually recognise licences, the National Audit Office (NAO) says.

The public spending watchdog warned that "detailed delivery plans" had not yet been completed.

But the government told it the project was "deliverable".



And this is another thing that should be simply a non-story.

We have a comprehensive driving test, theory test, and instruction. For what possible reason could this be an issue? And yet - lets all make a drama out of something that shouldnt even come up in the news....

For the billionth time, we are currently part of the EU. This means, unlike other "3rd nation" states, we are actually PERFECTLY aligned with the EU and its standards across the board.

If I am free to go drive in France now, why shouldnt I be next year? Its stupidity like this that really frustrates me. Of all the things we should be worrying about this should be little more than a memo

UK - "So, licences - theres no issue now, lets just recognise each others?"
EU - "Of course. Next...."
Quite. Most US states don't require me to have anything more than a UK driving license, why would the EU?
 
I think that you are wrong. Someone abusing my aunty and uncle for being Jewish had exactly the same intent and exactly the same impact. That she converted does not reduce that or make the abuse any more justified.
As I said earlier, nobody should be abused or attacked, I believe that is wrong. I also believe that it is "more wrong" to abuse or attack someone for being a member of what I consider a protected class - that of their race, gender, sexuality, etc.

Can't help but use a football analogy in Random, so sorry about this. Footballers call each other clams all the time. We've all done it on the pitch and all been on the receiving end too. It shouldn't happen, we'd all prefer it didn't happen but it does. But when John Terry calls Anton Ferdinand a black clam, that's something altogether different.

Now as I've also said in this thread, when someone identifies as Jewish, it's a little different. Because of what has happened in their history, "Jewish" no longer just means someone who subscribes to Judaism as a religion. It can mean someone from that religion, someone of Jewish descent, someone who is a part of the Jewish culture, or often just someone from Israel. Where Islamic and Arabic (as one of many examples) are distinctions along which we can divide religion from genetics, Jewish and Jewish are currently inseparable. If someone attacked your aunt with the intent of insulting her religion then, as distasteful as that is, it's of the lesser category of "badness" in my opinion. If they attacked her religion in an attempt to attack Jewish people as a genetic or cultural group, then what they did was in the bigger bad category.

*There is sill a ginger and scouse exemption from protected groups - nobody want those genes spreading.
 
I think that you are wrong. Someone abusing my aunty and uncle for being Jewish had exactly the same intent and exactly the same impact. That she converted does not reduce that or make the abuse any more justified.

Quite simply any abuse of people is wrong. Regardless of their cultural, religious or any other beliefs. Maybe Scara is saying we should be able to question and challenge peoples beliefs. But that is very different from abuse.

Where does the Corbyn, lefty, anti-zionist stance sit? It's not 'abuse' but a rather basic dogma against right wing US and Zionist dominant forces. In one sense you need criticism and light shone on these powerful concerns to ensure they are not abusing others themselves. On the other hand the left wing dogma strays into something that is touching on racism - stereotyping people - and too close to the zionist conspiracy theories - jews run the world - blah blah gonad*s. successful jews stand out because other successful people don't have such a tag.

It is important zionism has its critics so long as it doesn't stray into simplistic stereotypes. What do the anti-zionists believe? That Israel shouldn't exist or that it should observe previous borders? Throughout history people have conquered and changed, why should things cease now? Now more than ever people are more forgiving of opposing neighbours.
 
As I said earlier, nobody should be abused or attacked, I believe that is wrong. I also believe that it is "more wrong" to abuse or attack someone for being a member of what I consider a protected class - that of their race, gender, sexuality, etc.

Can't help but use a football analogy in Random, so sorry about this. Footballers call each other clams all the time. We've all done it on the pitch and all been on the receiving end too. It shouldn't happen, we'd all prefer it didn't happen but it does. But when John Terry calls Anton Ferdinand a black clam, that's something altogether different.

Now as I've also said in this thread, when someone identifies as Jewish, it's a little different. Because of what has happened in their history, "Jewish" no longer just means someone who subscribes to Judaism as a religion. It can mean someone from that religion, someone of Jewish descent, someone who is a part of the Jewish culture, or often just someone from Israel. Where Islamic and Arabic (as one of many examples) are distinctions along which we can divide religion from genetics, Jewish and Jewish are currently inseparable. If someone attacked your aunt with the intent of insulting her religion then, as distasteful as that is, it's of the lesser category of "badness" in my opinion. If they attacked her religion in an attempt to attack Jewish people as a genetic or cultural group, then what they did was in the bigger bad category.

*There is sill a ginger and scouse exemption from protected groups - nobody want those genes spreading.

Ironic that you share Judaism's belief in a special 'chosen people' :)
 
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So is this the beginning of the end for her? I was of the impression none would bother coming forward unless there was enough to get a leadership challenge
Usually someone planning to contest the leadership would gather the votes behind the scenes first, and that may have happened.

It's entirely possible, likely even, that they've gone around to get the votes and been told "I'll send a letter when I see others". So someone has to take the first step to open the gates. Unless he's committing career suicide, I suspect this is the beginning of the end for her.
 
Usually someone planning to contest the leadership would gather the votes behind the scenes first, and that may have happened.

It's entirely possible, likely even, that they've gone around to get the votes and been told "I'll send a letter when I see others". So someone has to take the first step to open the gates. Unless he's committing career suicide, I suspect this is the beginning of the end for her.

yeah, although, if the support is there, they could have lost a vote last night and started things whilst avoiding the whipping scandal
 
Usually someone planning to contest the leadership would gather the votes behind the scenes first, and that may have happened.

It's entirely possible, likely even, that they've gone around to get the votes and been told "I'll send a letter when I see others". So someone has to take the first step to open the gates. Unless he's committing career suicide, I suspect this is the beginning of the end for her.

I'm not so sure. The timing is difficult. Although something has to change, I don't think it is May. Change May and the underlying issue remains. PLease excuse the pun.
 
I'm not so sure. The timing is difficult. Although something has to change, I don't think it is May. Change May and the underlying issue remains. PLease excuse the pun.

I think a leaver leader with a bit of vision and agency could carry all the Tory/DUP party bar the 10-12 Clarke/Soubrey lot; plus the Bennites in Labour.

That's a slender majority for a Canada deal.
 
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