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Politics, politics, politics

Grays_1890 said:
I am stuck on the whole in and out debate (Sounds like a sketch from confessions)

I have a pretty comfy life, yeh some tweaks here and there would be nice but I would not say much affects me from being in the EU.

There are a few tinkle boiling bits that annoy me from the outside in, like border control and sending credits overseas whilst old people struggle, and if that could change and we remain in I would.....I suppose

But I dont nearly know enough
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Me neither. I'm waiting for someone to post a link that explains the pro's and con's ;)
Without knowing all the details we just have to listen about migrants this and migrants that!
 
Whatever you think of the EU "in-out-shakeitallabout" debate Politics in the UK and in Europe just got VERY interesting. Where's my popcorn!
 
Something bugged me about this "red card" agreement when they first mentioned it and having read more it still does. Is anyone else as concerned as me?

Apparently, under this new "Red card" system, if 55% of EU parliaments object to EU legislation it may be rethought. Just how (in what is apparently a democratic process) does a piece of legislation make it through with 55% of the voting parliaments against it? And also "It may be rethought". WTF? So more than half of the voters in a democratic decision making process agree but the best the EU can offer is that it may be rethought?

That's a little worrying.
 
scaramanga said:
Something bugged me about this "red card" agreement when they first mentioned it and having read more it still does. Is anyone else as concerned as me?

Apparently, under this new "Red card" system, if 55% of EU parliaments object to EU legislation it may be rethought. Just how (in what is apparently a democratic process) does a piece of legislation make it through with 55% of the voting parliaments against it? And also "It may be rethought". WTF? So more than half of the voters in a democratic decision making process agree but the best the EU can offer is that it may be rethought?

That's a little worrying.
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The whole point of the EU is to have a unified European-wide Government anyway, so what does that matter?
 
glorygloryeze said:
The whole point of the EU is to have a unified European-wide Government anyway, so what does that matter?
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That government has to be voted in and those voters will all have differing opinions.

Reading between the lines, it's just an excuse for the EU to flat out ignore democratic process in preference for a silly socialist experiment.
 
scaramanga said:
That government has to be voted in and those voters will all have differing opinions.
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Indeed, that's why ultimately it wont work. There are enough issues with democracy in individual countries with the same language, culture, history etc, let alone is disparate range of countries, language, cultures, economies etc.

scaramanga said:
Reading between the lines, it's just an excuse for the EU to flat out ignore democratic process in preference for a silly socialist experiment.
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As it always was and always will be....though whether it's a "Socialist", "Fascist" or "Totalitarian" experiment might be a moot point...
 
glorygloryeze said:
Indeed, that's why ultimately it wont work. There are enough issues with democracy in individual countries with the same language, culture, history etc, let alone is disparate range of countries, language, cultures, economies etc.



As it always was and always will be....though whether it's a "Socialist", "Fascist" or "Totalitarian" experiment might be a moot point...
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I still genuinely cannot understand (and I have tried) why the EU cannot simply be an open border market. Why we can't trade goods and labour freely without the need for handouts, legislation, "ever closer union", etc.
 
I am torn now. I was pro-European, but I am less so now. I do wonder whether if the UK votes to leave whether the EU will suddenly offer a better settlement to the UK? My feeling is that the rest of the EU has seriously underestimated how close the vote in the UK may be. The UK pulling out would be a disaster for the rump left in.. the UK is a massive net contributor (4th or 5th largest global economy) to the EU, and an important counter balance to the Germany/France axis. If the UK does vote to leave, then watch France and Germany brick themselves!
 
inkpenspur said:
I am torn now. I was pro-European, but I am less so now. I do wonder whether if the UK votes to leave whether the EU will suddenly offer a better settlement to the UK? My feeling is that the rest of the EU has seriously underestimated how close the vote in the UK may be. The UK pulling out would be a disaster for the rump left in.. the UK is a massive net contributor (4th or 5th largest global economy) to the EU, and an important counter balance to the Germany/France axis. If the UK does vote to leave, then watch France and Germany brick themselves!
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Indeed; but if we vote out, the EU will simply ask for another vote "in case we didn't understand the details" - like they did in the case of Ireland..
 
inkpenspur said:
Exactly, but with an enhanced set of concessions?
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Initially, they'll offer candy floss, but eventually they may offer something more concrete.

In the end it's one thing to have trade agreements and a "Common Market", but it's a TOTALLY different kettle of fish to have a unified currency and (hence) a unified Government....ultimately it will be the fact that this is not workable that will lead to the EU project failing (or at least going but to just being a large "Common Market"/trading area.
 
scaramanga said:
I still genuinely cannot understand (and I have tried) why the EU cannot simply be an open border market. Why we can't trade goods and labour freely without the need for handouts, legislation, "ever closer union", etc.
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I am guessing that the French and Germans wanted something to keep Russia/USSR at bay without so much American involvement. When you look at the map, you see the EU's march eastwards, taking in former Soviet countries, putting up more and more of a barrier/buffer between 'us' and 'them'. This, I guess, is Russia's motivation for going into the Ukraine. For Germany, it's a pretty big geo-political success if they manage to move the Berlin wall all the way to the Ukraine (should that county end up divided into two by the war there). If the EU can move into Belarus at some point, they probably will.

*edit* just to add, this is probably the motivation for the likes of George Galloway in campaigning to leave the EU. Under the guise of wanting more democracy, it's really about weakening the EU by removing a big player. If the EU gradually breaks up, then those countries in the east will, eventually, end up back under the wing of Mother Russia. That'd be why, imo, the USA is very keen on the EU staying intact. Galloway would be what Lenin called a 'useful idiot.'
 
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inkpenspur said:
I am torn now. I was pro-European, but I am less so now. I do wonder whether if the UK votes to leave whether the EU will suddenly offer a better settlement to the UK? My feeling is that the rest of the EU has seriously underestimated how close the vote in the UK may be. The UK pulling out would be a disaster for the rump left in.. the UK is a massive net contributor (4th or 5th largest global economy) to the EU, and an important counter balance to the Germany/France axis. If the UK does vote to leave, then watch France and Germany brick themselves!
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I'm with you re; being less certain of my position now

You make a good point re; Europe bricking themselves. And if they did react badly and significantly weaken the market and create inflation, that may increase prices for us as an importer too.
I think we are in too much of a dependency situation to leave - however I'm not sure the public will agree
 
scaramanga said:
:confused:
Showed themselves up how? As for good riddance, they're not going anywhere any time soon - even longer if Labour persist with Corbyn.
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The mum jibes were pathetic
To be fair, they are being true to themselves - sneering, elitist Eton tacos.
I don't blame them, it's the idiots that voted for them and are now surprised that are the problem
 
monkeybarry said:
The mum jibes were pathetic
To be fair, they are being true to themselves - sneering, elitist Eton tacos.
I don't blame them, it's the idiots that voted for them and are now surprised that are the problem
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Wasn't it Corbyn who brought up the mum stuff? Cameron was just pointing out the complete lack of respect that Corbyn has for both the country and the office.
 
scaramanga said:
Wasn't it Corbyn who brought up the mum stuff? Cameron was just pointing out the complete lack of respect that Corbyn has for both the country and the office.
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No, it was some other Labour politician heckling Cameron about his mum's anti-cuts views (about certain children's services iirc). I think his reaction showed he is feeling the pressure from this EU stuff.

PMQ's is a waste of time, Cameron simply doesn't answer enough of the questions. I would say they behave like a bunch of kids, but kids generally behave pretty well in assembly!
 
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