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Poch Discussions 2020

Discussion in 'Spurs News & Views' started by thfcsteff, 24 Mar 2020.

  1. thfcsteff

    thfcsteff Paul Stewart Staff Member

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    Folks,

    In an attempt to bring Poch discussion to one central place, I have created this thread. Ajax's point about him popping up left and right was a fair one. So here we go, Poch discussions here from now on please.
    Thanks.
     
  2. galeforce

    galeforce Ralph Coates

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    Can play off either flank, or up front, only 18, anything could happen
     
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  3. Raziel

    Raziel Frederic Kanoute

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    I have a very conflicted view of Poch

    The good
    - For a moment, he had us with that feel good feeling, that connected feeling that does not come with every manager (BMJ had it)
    - For a moment, the team looked like the real deal, pretty, entertaining with just enough bite, the side no one truly wanted to play
    - He absolutely helped guide the on field part of the club during a very difficult infrastructure transition that was important to the long term future of the club
    - He made us contenders

    The not so good
    - We were "nearly there" too many times under him and didn't make the final step, he had a few chances to produce that one performance out of the team that counted and we never did.
    - The youth and even established players didn't push on (Eriksen, Lamela, Rose, Dier, Dele), so many players seem to hit a peak 3 years ago and have not pushed on (Son to me is legitimately the only player that has improved each year)
    - His style in the ended seemed based more on emotion and when we used it all up, we were completely broken
    - Tactically seemed inflexible, once there was no prime Rose and Walker, no Dembele or Wanyama we seemed to still try to play as if we had those players over and over without success and never tried to shift the focus to the far greater attacking capabilities we had up front in AM positions (something Jose as example immediately tried before injuries blew everything up)
    - He didn't want to be here in the end but still let it death spiral for his benefit at whatever cost to the team and club ...

    In the end, we had 2-3 great years with him, he helped the club at a critical moment but my view is he was more of right man, right time with one of those moments where the squad was really well balanced and he got the benefit of that. It was time for him to go, and unfortunately I probably remember the end more than the best parts ..

    I don't think he will go on to be some all time great manager, he is a variant of Bielsa, for a moment, for a season it will look like the real deal but it will burn out in the end ..
     
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  4. Pirate55

    Pirate55 The Last Man Standing 17/18

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    Pretty much my thoughts too. I also can't get past the 27 players bought on his watch with the vast majority proving lemons - but I really don't want to get in a debate about this again.
     
  5. Mikey10

    Mikey10 Eidur Gudjohnsen

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  6. scaramanga

    scaramanga Garth Crooks Staff Member

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    The best and the worst manager we've had in some time.

    Worked wonders and then brick the bed, outbottling the world's biggest bottler in the process.
     
  7. afsoc4life

    afsoc4life Teemu Tainio

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    He was a good manager for Spurs. I feel that perhaps we need to consider the notion of managerial breaks. Manager gets tired and has a one year leave etc. The day to day stress of being a manager is a lot.
     
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  8. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Steve Carr

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    The best manager that we have had at Spurs since Terry Venables. Took us to the Champions League 4 consecutive times, thus hugely raising the profile and revenue levels of the club despite only being given the 6th highest wage budget and 17th biggest transfer budget in the country, I'm not sure any other manager could've done that and I doubt we'll see that feat matched in the next 20+ years. Poch also achieved this while getting his teams to play football that was great to watch. Not only that but he was also a likeable man who by and large behaved in the right way towards the press and match officials (Burnley away excepted - and I still think that incident must have been triggered by something said by the ref).
     
    Last edited: 25 Mar 2020
  9. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Steve Carr

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    I don't think you can make a statement about a vast majority of 27 signings being lemons without there being a debate about it really....

    Here are each years transfers under Poch (I could only find 26 signings, not sure who I have missed?):
    Year 1: Davies, Vorm, Dier, Yedlin, Fazio, Stambouli, Dele,
    Year 2: Wimmer, Trippier, Alderweireld, N'Jie, Son
    Year 3: Wanyama, Janssen, N'Koudou, Sissoko,
    Year 4: Sanchez, Aurier, Gazzaniga, Foyth, Llorente, Moura
    Year 5: Nobody
    Year 6: N'Dombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon, Clarke

    Looking at that I don't think his record was bad at all really.

    Davies, Dier, Dele, Trippier, Alderweireld, Son, Wanyama, Sissoko, Sanchez, Llorente, Moura, Lo Celso and even Ndombele (while Poch was still here) all decent players, some of them excellent.

    Of the rest:
    Aurier - is a decent attacking right back, better than many give credit for. He's not as good as Walker of course, but that's why Walker was a £50 million player.
    Sessegnon - I think he has everything needed to be a very good player and has already shown that in patches at Spurs. I think he'll prove well with his £25 million.
    Wimmer - did a reasonable job as backup for a couple of years and we then made a pretty big profit on him.
    Yedlin - bought as a young punt, we made profit on him and he is now proving a decent player at Newcastle.
    Vorm and Gazzaniga - are fine as back up keepers go (many PL teams have worse than those two)
    Foyth - quite a few of our fans seem to like him. I don't think he is a bad player, just one who hasn't really found a position yet. I expect he'll still have a decent career in football at centre half for a decent European team.
    Clarke - I don't think it is fair to class him as a 'bad' signing as surely it's still way too early to tell. There were also stories that Pochettino didn't want him at all hence the immediate loan to Leeds.

    That leaves as true bad signings:
    Fazio (I remember Poch actually wanting Hector Moreno but the chairman couldn't do a deal for him with Espanyol)
    Stambouli (I think it was Schneiderlin that Poch actually wanted). We also still made a profit on Stambouli when selling him to PSG.
    N'Jie
    Janssen
    N'Koudou (Pochettino actually wanted Mane)

    Irrespective of whether or not Poch did or didn't want those 'bad' players above they actually only lost us about £20 million in total. A drop in the ocean really in the wider scheme of things.

    That actually isn't a majority of lemons at all, even if you shift some of those in the 'Of the rest' list down a notch in to the 'bad signings' group.
     
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  10. Paxtonloudmouth

    Paxtonloudmouth Michael Brown

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    He should still be our manager. I see no evidence there is anyone better for the club out there.
     
  11. Raziel

    Raziel Frederic Kanoute

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    I think the stress is incredible, but that is what separates the good from the great, the ones that can stand the day in, day out, year in, year out.

    Not only do you have to bear the stress, but you need to want to "turn up" every day, in the end Poch didn't want to be here ..
     
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  12. galeforce

    galeforce Ralph Coates

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    is it overly simplistic to say he was a great head coach, but not a great manager
     
  13. Pirate55

    Pirate55 The Last Man Standing 17/18

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    The first couple of years may or may not have been his direct influence. I am particularly referring here to Dier and Dele.

    It is year three onwards that I have a problem with Poch on. We were flying high. We had qualified for the CL. We had world class training facilities and were building one of the best stadiums in the world. We had a phenomenal team - potentially on the cusp of achieving great things. We should have been able to attract the creme de la creme of talent - young, hungry English players that would have been keen to join "the project" and a coach who supposedly really did bring out the best in his players.

    Furthermore, we did have money for transfers. Record transfer fees were paid for Sanchez, Sissoko (!!!) and NDombele. Significant fees were paid for Janssen, Aurier and Moura. Similarly with Lo Celso and Sessegnon. No one can pretend he didn't have significant money to spend on players. Frankly he did - and from year thee to six almost all that have had some time to settle have proved to be lemons. Some even went badly backwards in their last few seasons under Poch - Trippier, Dele, Dier, Wanyama, Rose and Sanchex in particular.

    My final gripe with Poch era transfer business is the type of player he bought. Where were the leaders? Where were the winners? Where was the steel? What exactly was his obsession with wide attacking players? Especially as our system didn't play wingers! We had Son and Lamela, yet still bought NKoudo, N'Jie, Moura, Sissoko, Sessegnon and Clarke. The preponderance of these type of players has significantly skewed the balance of our squad and prevented us from strengthening in much more pressing areas. That is Poch's legacy.
     
  14. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Milija Aleksic

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    We were always going to crash and burn because of the high intensity training that Poch ran. Look at Dembele. Others got out such as Kaboul, because it was too tough for them.
     
  15. DubaiSpur

    DubaiSpur Christian Ziege

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    Let me list, just from recollection, the players Poch wanted versus the players he got.

    2014 - wanted Hector Moreno from Espanyol. Got Fazio. Wanted Morgan Schneiderlin from Soton . Got Benjamin Stambouli. Wanted Jay Rodriguez, also from Soton. Got no one.

    2015 - Wanted Berahino. Got N'Jie. A failed move which ruined Berahino's career, incidentally.

    2016 - Wanted Mane, from Soton. Got N'Koudou, after he spent 40 days in a hotel waiting for Levy to agree a fee. Wanted Wijnaldum from Newcastle. Got Sissoko. Wanted Zaha. Didn't get him.

    2017 - Wanted Barkley. Didn't get him, or anyone, for attacking midfield.

    2018 - Wanted Grealish, eventually. Didn't get him. Got absolutely no one, in a dereliction of duty by the board that still haunts us today.

    2019 - got who he wanted, as I understand it.

    In all the years he was here, he was only ever backed once like Klopp was backed, despite taking us to the same heights Klopp took Liverpool. He had to make do with second-choices and bargain bins, and the funny thing is, he turned them into absolute stars more often than not, despite that. Out of all his signings, I can think of maybe six that failed - Fazio, Stambouli, N'Jie, N'Koudou, Janssen, Aurier. And out of those, roughly 2/3rds were the bargain bin rude boys that Levy used to pull out to provide warm bodies where needed - Fazio, Stambouli, N'Jie, N'Koudou.

    Blame lies on him for Janssen and Aurier, both expensive and high-profile mistakes. Which, out of 26 signings (many not his first-choices) isn't half bad. There are some still in the 'iffy' category, including Sanchez, Ndombelly and so on, and if you really want to, you can count them against him too (although in that case, you also have to give him credit for Lo Celso from this summer - the polar opposite to the frustrating Tanguy). Other than that, I'm really not seeing where this precipitous decline in his ability to improve or identify players came from.

    We had finished 3rd, 2nd and 3rd and then decided to become the first British team in the history of the modern transfer window to make no signings - *twice*.

    Thst probably has more to do with the drop-off in energy, motivation, fitness and meteorology than anything else - utter stagnation, because of that dereliction of duty.
     
    Last edited: 25 Mar 2020
  16. scaramanga

    scaramanga Garth Crooks Staff Member

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    He did some pretty impressive stuff for us.

    He also lost a cup final to Jurgen Klopp.
     
  17. thfcsteff

    thfcsteff Paul Stewart Staff Member

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    Moura, Sissoko, Sess and Clarke were NOT his first choices. How many times must the Sissoko story be told here for you to believe it? BTW what he managed to get from Sissoko would've been beyond Guardiola!
     
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  18. thfcsteff

    thfcsteff Paul Stewart Staff Member

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    Kaboul was not good enough to be a top 4 player.
     
  19. Glenda's Legs

    Glenda's Legs Michael Carrick

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    There is always money for transfers (albeit maybe dependent on outgoings) but it’s the additional money for wages that is needed for the key players that has always been the issue, no? We can and did identify good players that we could afford to buy but were not able to meet personal terms within our wage structure. Why is that always overlooked?

    As for the players who you cite as going ‘badly backwards in their last few seasons under Poch’ : Trippier : his last season, not last few seasons, mainly due to carrying a WC injury; Dier : well documented illnesses in last season; Dele : debatable, just your opinion; Sanchez : equally debatable. Had a great season then dropped off - not unheard of for a young player but has looked good again this season overall; Wanyama : clearly injury related; Rose : less clear, injuries played a part but he has to be a Poch success story overall not a Poch failure.
    It feels like you are looking for causes to beat him up over.
    He did what he could with a very limited budget. he was not perfect and I personally think he was a bit too principled with players that led to them being frozen out when there may have been a better way of dealing with the situation. But still the best manager we have had in a long time and undeserving of a lot of the revisionism going around now.
     
  20. Cochise

    Cochise Steve Carr

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    Loved the man. At our best he had us outplaying some of the best team's in Europe, but unfortunately our worst went on and on and on. He was never really backed by Levy, which is who should take the biggest share of blame for where we are now.

    My only gripe with Poch were the games he played with the press regarding his future. Even before the Champions League final comments, he always seemed to be open to the idea of going elsewhere should the opportunity arise. The media love speculating and he always gave them just enough to encourage the stories which as a fan unsettled me.
     
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