Pick Your Poison

[thfcsteff]

I have seen numerous posts on different platforms by Spurs "fans" calling for his head. I'm glad you agree that makes no sense but, believe it or not, there are others who take the contrary view. My point is, and remains, that perspective can be gained by looking at the several teams that were around us last year and at how they have performed in the early part of the season. Whatever the reason, and you have cited to some, they are not doing any better than we are.

As I noted, I am not advocating ignoring Poch's perceived failings or saying he should be immune from criticism. But I don't think it is "stupid" to call out the approach of alleged supporters who want to chop and change six games into a season.

Again on point.

 

[Craig_J]

Of course! I was responding to the previous posters comment (which may have been tongue in cheek) regarding whether Ole would get more time at Man Utd because he scored the winner in the Champions League final in 1999.

Ahh, apologies I shouldn’t have skimmed the post you quoted.

 

[Legohamster]

Ole will be gone by Xmas. No to holding fire, because he has no managerial track record apart from abject failure at Cardiff. Ardiles and Hoddle winning the FA Cup didn't save them at Spurs. Performance as a player really should not have any influence on retention as a coach. Poch gets time to turn us around because in his period with us he has taken a Europa League side into the Champions League and kept them there.

Of course the replacement of a failing manager can lead to an uptick in fortunes on occasions. Ramos being replaced by Redknapp being a recent example for Spurs. But the difference with us now is that we haven't been that bad -- no "2 points from 8 games." There are reasons to be concerned but the reaction has been OTT in my view.

So what reaction do you think 2 points from 27 away from home and a not fantastic home record should have.

It’s important to recognise no one wants old Mopo gone.

This new tactically inept, grumbletron we can do with out.

You can only play "cliche bingo" if people insist on dealing cliches without context themselves. I see a real split developing between our supporters. It isn't great.

Do you think threads like this help?

 

[Raziel]

So what reaction do you think 2 points from 27 away from home and a not fantastic home record should have.

It’s important to recognise no one wants old Mopo gone.

This new tactically inept, grumbletron we can do with out.

Do you think threads like this help?

People live in a fantasy world, in a billion dollar business there is no "credit in the bank"

I've worked for a fairly significant global company for 15 years, always successful, and yet I'm always 1 bad year away (if that) from firing .. that's how it works.

To your point @Legohamster old Mopo got a side with one recognized striker to push the best teams in the league. This version has Kane, Son, Lucas, Dele, Eriksen, Lamela (6 fudging players that will score double figure, 3 likely to score 20+ a season) and for 9 months now we rarely ever score more than 2 ...

 

[Parklaner81]

I prefer dancing with them.

Why is this theme making me feel hungry...?

 

[Bullet]

tactically inept, grumbletron

now THAT is a funny description

 

[Yiddo]

He is our most successful manager in recent times but has not won anything and that is the problem. This is not people overreacting about abit of bad form, this has been going on for a year and a half. Its not a case of not appreciating the excellent job he has done, its wondering whether he has taken us as far as he can.

Its no coincidence that players do not want to sign a new contract and a player that has left has spoken about thing happening behind the scenes. I think Poch has peaked, he moulded his style from a manager that has also never won anything important and has never managed a big club.

 

[NYSpur]

So what reaction do you think 2 points from 27 away from home and a not fantastic home record should have.

It’s important to recognise no one wants old Mopo gone.

This new tactically inept, grumbletron we can do with out.




Do you think threads like this help?

It is an interesting issue -- how does a decision be made that a coach has to go because he will not reclaim prior glories? One could take the approach that it can't be defined but we will know it when we see it. Or, the classic, "has he lost the dressing room" approach. I would suggest that there has to be a focus on the details of the run of form to see if it is systemic or is a product of circumstances. At the moment, I think that there are reasons to believe that Poch will bring us out of this because the performances have not always merited the results and there were often mitigating circumstances.

Just focusing on this season, ties away at Emirates Marketing Project and Arsenal are better results than the comparable fixtures last year. The performance at Leicester was not bad. Our terrible run of results at the tail end of last season looks bad. But at least some of those can be viewed as not being bad performances in the circumstances --- the last minute loss at Bournemouth when our depleted side played with 9 men for almost an entire half (and dominated the first half), the last minute loss at Liverpool where we looked a possible winner after drawing level, the loss at Soton where the free kick they scored from was moved ten yards closer -- all in the context of a high number of injuries to key players.

A further context, before our bad run started, we had 4 away wins on the trot, including probably our best performance of the season away at Everton. And one has to add in the performances away at Emirates Marketing Project and Ajax in the Champions League insofar as they show the mentality of the team.

With this context, I don't see Poch as the reincarnation of Juande Ramos, at this point. I would accept that, like recessions that start before being recognised as such, it is possible that we are already facing the end of the Poch era but just don't know it yet. My gut tells me that isn't the case, but it has been wrong before.

 

[glorygloryeze]

One other factor to be thought about, if things don't improve: Levy/The board and whether they have backed Poch/are interested in Football success (as in Trophies and NOT just CL money from securing top 4).

We as fans will only be party to so much information being on the outside; however, within football circles it will likely be very well known whether Pochettino is a very GHod coached that reached a limit due to not being backed at the right times or whether he actually HAS been backed well but made certain decisions (re not buying certain players, putting to much faith in the wrong players etc) which are now costing him further down the line.

If it's the former, you can bet that the board will be wary of hiring an 'upgrade' to Poch who knows the PL very well as a) they'll be likely far less forgiving/provide 'PR cover' and b) will likely prove more expensive in that they will know what they want and want to be backed as such (nowhere to hide in terms of perceived dithering in transfer windows..)

If it's the latter, there will be a queue of managers only too willing to work with this squad and the promise of additional money to spend.

If things get worse, this might have a bearing on how much 'patience' the board has; much more than any notion about 'loyalty' as @Raziel hints.

It's also in Poch's interests to turn it around, if only for his next job if he leaves us: the 'punching above our weight' narrative wont wash so easily anymore with boards of top clubs. Certainly not at Real or maybe even Man Utd, if our downturn continues. For his next job - if it's to be at a top club - he absolutely needs a trophy.

Could it be that this survival instinct alone means he'll turn it around? Here's hoping...

 

[Rorschach]

Red wine please.

 

[Mr_B]

Great, another knee jerk reaction thread, well I'm one of the "wolves 5", *no pubs will be bombed*

 

[JerusalemMan]

Did not stop supporting us when we had some shocking managers.

So not stopping just because the current one has depression and keeps changing his mind about what he wants.

Decent coach but not keen on him as a man. Levy should do the sensible thing and that is nothing.

I would have Poch as the manager for next 2 seasons. To expensive to sack plus his fan boys won't give the next guy a fair crack of the whip. Best leave him to destroy his legacy like Mourinho does.

Personally I'd say it'd be best if he stayed, enhanced and cemented his legacy after this mini-wobble, as he successfully gets to grips with operating at a higher echelon than he ever has before a a manager.
But each to their own

 

[FatBloke]

So what reaction do you think 2 points from 27 away from home and a not fantastic home record should have.

But on the other hand, that sequence has included two of the GREAT away performances in Manchester and Amsterdam.

It's all rather confusing.

 

[Goatleaf]

I'd stick with Poch at the moment as he obviously is a very good coach. The problem is that he is clearly far from an easy personality for the board to deal with and I don't think we would die of shock if he leaves in the next year or so. If he does go for any reason, I'm hoping Eddie Howe is given a chance. People have praised Poch for years at getting Spurs into and staying in the top four with less resources than their rivals but Bournemouth are the miracle that nobody ever mentions. Gates of 11,000, steady sales of players and completely unable to sign established top flight players yet they are never anywhere near the relegation zone and at the same time play very attractive football. Yes, they seem to continually make excellent signings but I suspect a key reason is that EH is another outstanding coach who can get the best out of his players.

 

[Raziel]

I'd stick with Poch at the moment as he obviously is a very good coach. The problem is that he is clearly far from an easy personality for the board to deal with and I don't think we would die of shock if he leaves in the next year or so. If he does go for any reason, I'm hoping Eddie Howe is given a chance. People have praised Poch for years at getting Spurs into and staying in the top four with less resources than their rivals but Bournemouth are the miracle that nobody ever mentions. Gates of 11,000, steady sales of players and completely unable to sign established top flight players yet they are never anywhere near the relegation zone and at the same time play very attractive football. Yes, they seem to continually make excellent signings but I suspect a key reason is that EH is another outstanding coach who can get the best out of his players.

Eddie is an interesting idea, but BMJ, Harry and Poch should teach us the same lesson, a good coach with a certain caliber/style of players, doesn't automatically translate into a good coach with a higher caliber of player, i.e. everyone has a ceiling.

I'd really rather we go big (if it comes to that), an experienced coach starting with the first 11 we have, should be able to push us up another notch

 

[Mulletperm]

But on the other hand, that sequence has included two of the GREAT away performances in Manchester and Amsterdam.

It's all rather confusing.

One of which came about from a fantastic hattrick from a player who was then dropped for the final.

 

[Modric THFC]

Well done on showing how much of a better class of fan you are.

People paying 2 grand a year on tickets have the right to be furious.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Eddie is an interesting idea, but BMJ, Harry and Poch should teach us the same lesson, a good coach with a certain caliber/style of players, doesn't automatically translate into a good coach with a higher caliber of player, i.e. everyone has a ceiling.

I'd really rather we go big (if it comes to that), an experienced coach starting with the first 11 we have, should be able to push us up another notch

Im a big fan of Howe, and the work he has done at Bournemouth - but I do not think he is anywhere near good enough for us right now.

He has plateaued quite badly at Bournemouth, who are still wildly inconsistent and unable to defend reliably to grind out results.

Maybe in time, when he pushes past that point, he'll be a good option to consider, but right now I just dont think he is up to it.

The question for me is that of style.

Does Levy go with what the club is built on, take a coach able to develop players - much like Poch was (or Howe might be) and give him a shot...

...or does he go for a much more tried and tested manager, could he ignore Mourinho and Allegri (Utd looking to replace Ole with) being available?

Ordinarily I would expect Levy to go for the coach, but appointing someone like that mid season carries risk. Given the status of the club right now, I suspect he might be tempted to go for more of a sure thing.

 

[fernadez]

But on the other hand, that sequence has included two of the GREAT away performances in Manchester and Amsterdam.

It's all rather confusing.

Great emotionally and results wise.

But performance wise? That first half v Ajax was a car crash.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Can’t believe people would even consider Mourinho. He plays crap football and more importantly his recent results have been even worse. There is no way our fans would tolerate that style of play unless he’s winning everything on offer. He’s a dinosaur, yesterday’s man. Hasn’t moved with the times. Football is much more attacking and offensive these days but he still plays his usual “play chicken” and defensive style with the intention to nick a 1-0.