• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Paul Mitchell - Head of Recruitment and Analysis

scaramanga said:
That depends on his contract.

Back when I didn't mind being someone's IT bitch I signed a few contracts that claimed the rights to anything I created or designed during the period in which I was working for them that related to the customer's
field and/or business interests.

I don't think that's what has happened here but I'd be very surprised of clubs didn't have their data people on similar contracts.
Click to expand...

I meant protecting the IP with patent or the likes.

Putting stuff like that in contracts is common, but it doesn't really protect the IP.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
You mentioned that 'Southampton will have owed the IP on his computer systems, so part of why it will take a while for him to get up-to-speed is because he'll have to re-write his algorithms'.

He'd only have to re-write the algorithm if the IP is protected. It can only be protected be through one of 3 things (there are a couple of others but they aren't applicable here);

A patent: I've search and none exist. So it's not that.

Copyright: This gives the person who created the work exclusive rights. If Mitchell created the algorithm like you say, he owns the copyright so would just take it with him.

Trademark: More of a logo/sign type thing so not applicable here.

This was just me trying to show you that whoever or wherever you got the information that 'Southampton own the IP' from was talking nonsense.

My main concern is that you believe an ex footballer who moved into recruitement within a year of retirement has somehow found the time to become an expert in writing complex computer algorithms.

I don't know where you got it from, but it's nonsense. Yes, he probably uses data and is pretty good with statistics, has a good eye for a player and builds himself a good network of employees, but somekind of computer genius he is not.
Click to expand...
I think it is very disingenuous to say that a footballer is that and ONLY that. As if he doesn't have time to dabble, or even seriously immerse himself in other activities. Socrates was a physician and he didn't start studying only after he hung up his boots, just to name one example. I don't know if Mitchell writes his own algorithms, but to say that he would only have time to study comp sci, or whatever, after he stopped playing is downright silly. No offense meant to you, just your argument.
 
There's nothing complex about any scouting algorithm.
What they do weigh certain stats that they look for in different positions depending on the quality of the league the player is in and the club he plays for.
You don't have to know anything about computers to write an algorithm like this.
 
Modric THFC said:
There's nothing complex about any scouting algorithm.
What they do weigh certain stats that they look for in different positions depending on the quality of the league the player is in and the club he plays for.
You don't have to know anything about computers to write an algorithm like this.
Click to expand...
I've not read anything on Mitchell or any scouting 'algorithms' aside from the ones posted on here so this is just speculation based on that and what you've (and others) said.

Perhaps the 'black box' is both a place for scouted player presentations and sort of the place where the data that is accumulated is kept and processed, either in terms of strengths & weaknesses or complex stats that are balanced against situational factors which forms the 'value' of a player being presented.

Sorry for poor grammer, I'm on my third consecutive nightshift after a day of travelling and its taking its toll.
 
alekaras said:
I think it is very disingenuous to say that a footballer is that and ONLY that. As if he doesn't have time to dabble, or even seriously immerse himself in other activities. Socrates was a physician and he didn't start studying only after he hung up his boots, just to name one example. I don't know if Mitchell writes his own algorithms, but to say that he would only have time to study comp sci, or whatever, after he stopped playing is downright silly. No offense meant to you, just your argument.
Click to expand...

I've never said that a footballer is that and only that. Of course there are many who do immerse themselves and excel in other things, but it's not exactly common practice. This added to the fact that the only place anyone has ever claimed that he has written his own algorithms is in GB's post makes it fairly unlikely to be true IMO.

Added to that GB's post claimed that Southampton own the IP to his computer system and this is why he has to re-write the algorythms. They haven't protected the IP by means of patent, copyright and the contract they had with him is no more (not to mention that an IP section in a contract doesn't actually protect you that well anyway).

The above two points combined lead me to believe that Mitchell has not developed a computer system, and if he has, the idea is not under the ownership of Southampton Football Club. Like I said I think he's probably a talented statistician (something he probably actually did seriously immerse himself in), who knows how to run a team of talented data analysts and scouts.

Modric THFC said:
There's nothing complex about any scouting algorithm.
What they do weigh certain stats that they look for in different positions depending on the quality of the league the player is in and the club he plays for.
You don't have to know anything about computers to write an algorithm like this.
Click to expand...

I'll assume you know a lot more about computer algorythms than I do. So maybe he has in fact written them, but if they are as straight forward as you say, there may not even be any IP to protect (or if there is, it will be difficult). So again, he could just take it with him. Although since we know Southampton haven't patented or copyrighted anything, we know that anyway.

JellySpur said:
I've not read anything on Mitchell or any scouting 'algorithms' aside from the ones posted on here so this is just speculation based on that and what you've (and others) said.

Perhaps the 'black box' is both a place for scouted player presentations and sort of the place where the data that is accumulated is kept and processed, either in terms of strengths & weaknesses or complex stats that are balanced against situational factors which forms the 'value' of a player being presented.

Sorry for poor grammer, I'm on my third consecutive nightshift after a day of travelling and its taking its toll.
Click to expand...

This. GB, if you can provide some kind of solid evidence, then fair enough.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
This. GB, if you can provide some kind of solid evidence, then fair enough.
Click to expand...
Let me start by saying that I do NOT believe an unsourced and unreferenced article on an internet blog represents "solid evidence". But I did find something from a couple of weeks ago...

"This process began when Spurs enticed Paul Mitchell, Southampton’s Head of Recruitment, to become their Head of Recruitment and Analysis. The young Englishman was known for his excellent work with Southampton’s recruitment where he played a big part in a tumultuous summer that turned into an excellent transfer window and, subsequently, Southampton’s best season in Premier League history as well as being the creator of their famous “black box” which in simple terms, is a set of algorithms that predicts players future performances using complex statistical analysis."​

Again, I don't for a moment think this proves anything at all. In fact, reading that article I'd almost suspect it could have been written by someone pulling information at random from this very web forum. Nonetheless, it does explicitly back up GB's statement. Make of it what you will.
 
DublinSpur said:
Let me start by saying that I do NOT believe an unsourced and unreferenced article on an internet blog represents "solid evidence". But I did find something from a couple of weeks ago...

"This process began when Spurs enticed Paul Mitchell, Southampton’s Head of Recruitment, to become their Head of Recruitment and Analysis. The young Englishman was known for his excellent work with Southampton’s recruitment where he played a big part in a tumultuous summer that turned into an excellent transfer window and, subsequently, Southampton’s best season in Premier League history as well as being the creator of their famous “black box” which in simple terms, is a set of algorithms that predicts players future performances using complex statistical analysis."​

Again, I don't for a moment think this proves anything at all. In fact, reading that article I'd almost suspect it could have been written by someone pulling information at random from this very web forum. Nonetheless, it does explicitly back up GB's statement. Make of it what you will.
Click to expand...

It does, and if GB is right and he did write the Algorithms all himself, then fair enough I hold my hands up. But, there is still no evidence of IP protection which would prevent him from taking anything to Spurs with him as GB was suggesting.

P.D. said:
There's much more info on it in this article - http://www.sport-magazine.co.uk/features/saints-and-sensibility

Mitchell also says it's unique to Southampton but sounds more like a full on analysis room where software to analyse stats etc is just a part of it.
Click to expand...

I'd not seen that before, it does genuinely sound like a good piece of kit. I took that as unique to Southampton in that it's the only place that had it at the time of interview (and by 'it' I mean the entire black box structure as well as algorithms and whatever else).
 
P.D. said:
There's much more info on it in this article - http://www.sport-magazine.co.uk/features/saints-and-sensibility

Mitchell also says it's unique to Southampton but sounds more like a full on analysis room where software to analyse stats etc is just a part of it.
Click to expand...
It's worth pointing out though that piece doesn't state (or even imply) that Mitchell wrote any of the software or algorithms himself... merely that he collates, analyses and interprets data. I would have thought that a relatively in-depth article like that would have made a point of stating that Mitchell created the algorithms (if he had done).

I'm not trying to take anything away from the guy (clearly he's talented in this area), nor to prove or disprove GB's point. However, in my view there's precious little evidence to suggest Mitchell created the software (or the algorithms used by the software) himself. But the jury is still out I suppose... the only way we'll settle this is if someone asks the guy the question directly.

Until then though, I'd be careful about labelling Mitchell as a software / algorithm developer as though it were fact.
 
Millsy_Yiddo said:
I'll assume you know a lot more about computer algorythms than I do. So maybe he has in fact written them, but if they are as straight forward as you say, there may not even be any IP to protect (or if there is, it will be difficult). So again, he could just take it with him. Although since we know Southampton haven't patented or copyrighted anything, we know that anyway.
Click to expand...

An algorithm can be as simple or complex as you want to make it.
It's like writing a flowchart.

What Mitchell/Southampton had that looked unique was a team of kids recording data from videos or games that Mitchell himself was in control of. Mitchell/Southampton might have trained him to look for specific things. Opta has a pointless stat 'key passes' - any pass that leads to a shot on goal. Mitchell/Southampton could train their people to actually record real key passes by viewing the videos a tad more subjectively.
 
life was so much simpler when black box meant this...............

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back