Panorama, 13th feb - crumbling USA

[Leeds Spur]

i think Gifter and Leeds just covered most of it;

an overview of the conditions the millions of unemployed are living in and effect of the US's blindness to any form of socialism (from all the americans i know it comes from socialism = communism = russia = anti-american) is having on certain areas of the country.

it would recommend taking 30mins out to watch it (its a difficult watch), made me furious - not just what has happened (that can happen anywhere with a mixture of bad luck and bad management), but the arrogant, "only look after myself" attitude, often portrayed in the guise of "a solution"

the level of disrepair in Detroit (not exactly a backwater) is unbelievalbe

the general attitude seems to be, its ok we'll just get business to create jobs and everything will be ok. (stick fingers in ears - la la la, it'll be ok)
they seem to fail to realise that the above is great when their is economic growth and entrepeneurs a plenty, but at the moment there isn't, and there is no money flowing down to kick start it.
its like the gears in a clock seizing up and instead of repairing and oiling the cogs so they can start to work again, they just throw them on the scrap pile and let them erode (and these are PEOPLE we are talking about here!), but stil expect them to "sort themselves out"

its a self perpetuating cycle - 50m Americans (appx 18% of the population!!) have NO HEALTH CARE.
Now, even if you take the non socialist attitude of, "they should get a job and pay for it", how exactly do these people expect that 18% can become part of a progresive workforce?
Person get ill - doesnt have health care - cant see a Dr - problem gets worse - other problems occur as a result - person become too ill to work..............how on earth that can even be a thought process in a "civilised" coutnry is beyond me.

If you changed the skin colour of everyone in that film to black and said it shot in Africa somewhere, no one would question it.

My wife is a yank, and she felt genuinely ashamed and embarrased. Its hard, 6 years ago we were going to move to CA - we didnt and had plans to move 5 years from now.....there is no way we can see it happening anymore as it seems that country is on a slippery slope. One that its arrogance will ultimately increase.

I can only see a public uprising if it carries on - GHod help them if they elect a Republican govt

You should watch this:

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3971045.html

Requiem for Detroit - BRILLIANT!!!

 

[monkeybarry]

I can't say this in a manner sincerely enough, but if i were to put it bluntly,

Life without repentence = Hell.

This is what GHod's Word teaches us, but nonetheless, cue people being offended...



The bolded bit's just about correct. and GHod didn't "invent" abortion, it is simply man's misuse and perversion of what we have been given in knowledge, into something appalling and sinful.



He allowed any of it so that He can be Glorified.



I dont feel condoms are out of place either when used in the right context.. and people aren't encouraged not to use condoms.. they're encouraged not to have sex at all before marriage. One of my best friends is adopted under the same circumstances you offered above. He's now gone on to graduate college, get a sufficient job, an - d better yet, he knows the Glory of Christ. If he was aborted I would be without one of my best friends. Its not impossible.

but he did create the knowledge by which humanity created abortion - that smae knowledge that created tylenol etc (as you stated earlier) that help cure the sick
(well, the sick that can AFFORD it of course - must make sure the sick pay. and if they dont........well, let them die. And that is ok by GHod -i mean the cristians dont seem to campaign about it that much, so it MUST be ok as they are gods representatives on earth. If it wernt ok, they would make a fuss about it and campaign to stop this situation. Whats that? Women that needs abortions are evil fluffy bunnies cuddlings and easier to pick on than big drug companies? Oh ok, lets just pick on the weak instead, that fits in with our nice cristian values. Lovely - moral highgroudn........taken.)

 

[monkeybarry]

You should watch this:

http://rutube.ru/tracks/3971045.html

Requiem for Detroit - BRILLIANT!!!

not sure i want to - it will make me too sad and angry

i take no pleasure in US demise. i only feel sorrow.

its very easy to take the anti US view (as i did until i met and married one and subsequently met a lot more, lovely americans (existing family and friends and new one working on London), and there is certainly a lot of ammunition to back it up

but ultimately it is the people (the majority of which are lovely) that suffer from the greed and ignorance of the powerful.
i made the comparison with africa earlier, and it is true in so many ways (certainly on the surface) - and is heartbreaking

 

[papaspur]

you've just reminded be of something from the doc - it was a tv debate with politicians that essentially concluded that a certain politician would happily let someone die if they didnt have health insurance rather than have state help

it ok to kill someone by proxy.........but NO ABORTIONS

lost for words

During some of the Republican presidential nominee debates, people from the crowd could be heard cheering when there were mentions of the death penalty and letting people go uninsured if they couldn't afford health insurance. I know these are a select few idiots, but I really do think this resonates within a large portion of the Republican field. Totally agree with your last three posts.

I don't watch much television. I do read a lot of the NYT, which has a liberal slant, but it doesn't make it wrong. That's what my beef is with the GOP: they're pulling the wool over people's eyes and for all intents and purposes, it's working. It's going to reach a tipping point at some point in the near future and is bound to backfire. But until citizens start becoming more focused on the policies these GOP candidates are actually running on, they will continue to be fooled.

 

[markysimmo]

The USA seems to be an ace place if your have money if you havent, well nobody cares

 

[papaspur]

The USA seems to be an ace place if your have money if you havent, well nobody cares

If only the people living here knew as much
](*,)

 

[monkeybarry]

During some of the Republican presidential nominee debates, people from the crowd could be heard cheering when there were mentions of the death penalty and letting people go uninsured if they couldn't afford health insurance. I know these are a select few idiots, but I really do think this resonates within a large portion of the Republican field. Totally agree with your last three posts.

I don't watch much television. I do read a lot of the NYT, which has a liberal slant, but it doesn't make it wrong. That's what my beef is with the GOP: they're pulling the wool over people's eyes and for all intents and purposes, it's working. It's going to reach a tipping point at some point in the near future and is bound to backfire. But until citizens start becoming more focused on the policies these GOP candidates are actually running on, they will continue to be fooled.

from afar, it seems the US needs a political revolution - sadly i cant see it happening

although extreme - i can see a humanitarian crisis developing though. not sure how thw world will react to that though.
do you think that is something that may happen? or maybe some uprising of the people if things continue?
(not sure if im being melodramatic and the reality is just not as bad as it seems)

 

[VolSpur]

i think the line about republicans rings true - certainly republicans that have political influence.
seems to be in line with the views of most republican voters i see in media (granted reporting bias) and in person (i talk politics with almost everyone, everytime i visit the states)

i think the figure re; no of cristians in the US was from a recent census (or such like) - maybe that doesnt include some people "that just tick that box", but those people are also the ones that are likely to side with a "cristian view". (if they are too scared or blind not to tick a "non cristian box" for fear its unconstitutional, then the sure as hell arnt going to disagree outloud or when voting)

I understand where you're coming from, I just hold that a true, "christian view" is not widely prescribed in America. I'd venture to say that not even 20% could say all 10 commandments.

the bible also states it is acceptable (nee, expected), for a father to sleep with their daughter to procreate - dont see that on many peoples election campaigning though

do you not think society has moved on a bit?
and that people should be able to live their lives how they want as long as they do not intentionally hurt someone?

I assume in the first bit you're referring to Lot and his daughters? Im wondering where it says to try to follow the actions of his daughters? Have you ever considered this was not right for his daughters to do? If you read any further you would know later on that the Moabites and Ammonites were both considered quite wicked people.

Please do not take one verse out of context and use it as a basis for your argument.

And it seems to me that the opposite of hurting someone is loving someone. Sounds an awful lot like you're wanting what we're told to do in the Bible. The bit about living however we want.. Well i've said my piece on this. It's not our life to live.

 

[monkeybarry]

I understand where you're coming from, I just hold that a true, "christian view" is not widely prescribed in America. I'd venture to say that not even 20% could say all 10 commandments.



I assume in the first bit you're referring to Lot and his daughters? Im wondering where it says to try to follow the actions of his daughters? Have you ever considered this was not right for his daughters to do? If you read any further you would know later on that the Moabites and Ammonites were both considered quite wicked people.

Please do not take one verse out of context and use it as a basis for your argument.
And it seems to me that the opposite of hurting someone is loving someone. Sounds an awful lot like you're wanting what we're told to do in the Bible. The bit about living however we want.. Well i've said my piece on this. It's not our life to live.

and therein lies the problem with all political views based on cristianity (maybe all regions - dotn know enough about other religions in politics) - the majority are stylised to suit an agenda

re; 20% not being "true cristians" - sadly, although you opinion may be accurate, its not correct. anyone that does anything in the name of cristianity has to be considered a cristian, as it is a choice. if "true cristians" dont see these people as cristians, then they need to do something about it.........but dont.

re; its not our life to live.
im not cristian - so who are you (not meant agressively) to tell me that my life is not mine to live? dont sound much like love to me. sounds more like a dictatorship.

 

[papaspur]

and therein lies the problem with all political views based on cristianity (maybe all regions - dotn know enough about other religions in politics) - the majority are stylised to suit an agenda

re; 20% not being "true cristians" - sadly, although you opinion may be accurate, its not correct. anyone that does anything in the name of cristianity has to be considered a cristian, as it is a choice. if "true cristians" dont see these people as cristians, then they need to do something about it.........but dont.

re; its not our life to live.
im not cristian - so who are you (not meant agressively) to tell me that my life is not mine to live? dont sound much like love to me. sounds more like a dictatorship.

You both make valid points about religion or whatever fitting agendas. What do you think the crusades were all about, reclaiming the holy land in the name of GHod (killing countless people along the way)? As someone that enjoys studying history, I've seen how close-minded religion can make people (and this is all religions, not just Christianity), which in turn is taken advantage of by those in a position of power they can ultimately abuse.

I respect people of other religions, but only as long as their religion doesn't get in the way of what I can or cannot do. I don't tell people of other creeds what they can or can't do, and to mirror monkeybarry's point, I don't expect anyone pointing any fingers at me, especially when they deem themselves qualified to dictate what I'm doing right or wrong.

The main problem with Christianity is that it is such a large, fractured religion. On the one hand, you have the remnants of the Old World Christian faith in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Then you have all the Lutheran/Protestant branches of Christianity, of which there seems to be one tailored for every walk of life based on how the parishioners/preachers choose to interpret the Bible. Finally, you have Mormonism, which... well, I'd put that closer to Scientology than Christianity. And Mitt Romney, the thereabouts front-runner of the GOP presidential candidate nomination.

Aside from history, I've also kept current with political news in our country. The religious right's fight against homosexuals isn't just a one-off platform that a minority of Americans are pushing for. However, recent trends seem to show that Americans have become more accepting of homosexuals with time.
I think the main problem is that citizens don't have a firm stance on anything. They seem content to just flow with whatever opinions are thrashed out in front of them on television, no matter how vitriolic their arguments might be.

 

[Gifter]

Finally, you have Mormonism, which... well, I'd put that closer to Scientology than Christianity.

Haven't studied any religion to sufficient levels to compare accurately, but ritually the Mormon faith bears remarkable resemblance to Freemasonry. Hiram Abiff and all that jazz.

Where's that guy called mormon he must know...

 

[VolSpur]

and therein lies the problem with all political views based on cristianity (maybe all regions - dotn know enough about other religions in politics) - the majority are stylised to suit an agenda

re; 20% not being "true cristians" - sadly, although you opinion may be accurate, its not correct. anyone that does anything in the name of cristianity has to be considered a cristian, as it is a choice. if "true cristians" dont see these people as cristians, then they need to do something about it.........but dont.

re; its not our life to live.
im not cristian - so who are you (not meant agressively) to tell me that my life is not mine to live? dont sound much like love to me. sounds more like a dictatorship.

It's spelled Christian.

I really don't understand your arguments

Corluka's just assisted against Barca!!!!

 

[monkeybarry]

It's spelled Christian.

I really don't understand your arguments

Corluka's just assisted against Barca!!!!

haha, just noticed I misspelt that four times! fudge im tired.

what dont you understand? dont really want to get into a religious debate today, but with US politics and religion being so intertwinned, some mention is required.

FFS - NO FOOTBALL IN RANDOM (fudging Cristians making up their own rules )

 

[thfcsteff]

...
Tottenham is part of one of the richest cities in the world, a third of the population are immigrants! There are millions of jobs filled by economic migrants when the youth and 'underclass' in Tottenham and other poor areas could very easily get a job.

I have kept out of it (largely because I have a specific view when it comes to societies, and my view would be a more socialist or 'compassionate capitalist' one - if the latter is ever going to be possible again in our world) but mate, the sentence above is rubbish, and I suspect when you re-read it, you'll agree. I would only refer you to your own comments earlier about a declining/declined education system churning out uneducated people to see where the problems of areas like Tottenham come from. That and disenfranchisement. Seriously, you say that Tottenham is part of one of the richest cities in the world, but the reality is that the ONLY way that makes even the remotest bit of sense is when taken purely geographically! Otherwise it is another world...we might well chuckle that the riots saved the NDP, but the wider truth is that our continued inhabitance could be the only shot Tottenham & Haringay get to try and grow and prosper rather than descend into some dirty carbuncle...

 

[thfcsteff]

not sure i want to - it will make me too sad and angry

i take no pleasure in US demise. i only feel sorrow.

its very easy to take the anti US view (as i did until i met and married one and subsequently met a lot more, lovely americans (existing family and friends and new one working on London), and there is certainly a lot of ammunition to back it up

but ultimately it is the people (the majority of which are lovely) that suffer from the greed and ignorance of the powerful.
i made the comparison with africa earlier, and it is true in so many ways (certainly on the surface) - and is heartbreaking

It is a country rich with diversity, brilliant alternative viewpoints and tremendous people. Unfortunately it is represented by the greediest and darkest common denominators; think of it as when everyone thought England, and the English, were a bunch of Chelsea & West Ham hooligans smashing Europe up 'for their country'...

BTW, when it comes to Volspur's beliefs, until this thread I didn't know them, I probably wouldn't have known them, and such, anyone who believes but doesn't try to indoctrinate is absolutely fine by me! Good for you if it works for you mate...

 

[southstand1882]

fudge me

From capitalism to the tooth fairy in 2 pages.....

 

[Leeds Spur]

I have kept out of it (largely because I have a specific view when it comes to societies, and my view would be a more socialist or 'compassionate capitalist' one - if the latter is ever going to be possible again in our world) but mate, the sentence above is rubbish, and I suspect when you re-read it, you'll agree. I would only refer you to your own comments earlier about a declining/declined education system churning out uneducated people to see where the problems of areas like Tottenham come from. That and disenfranchisement. Seriously, you say that Tottenham is part of one of the richest cities in the world, but the reality is that the ONLY way that makes even the remotest bit of sense is when taken purely geographically! Otherwise it is another world...we might well chuckle that the riots saved the NDP, but the wider truth is that our continued inhabitance could be the only shot Tottenham & Haringay get to try and grow and prosper rather than descend into some dirty carbuncle...

Nope.

A 3rd of the population of London are immigrants, and Tottenham is a few miles away with the best transport system in the world, from millions of jobs.

 

[monkeybarry]

It is a country rich with diversity, brilliant alternative viewpoints and tremendous people. Unfortunately it is represented by the greediest and darkest common denominators; think of it as when everyone thought England, and the English, were a bunch of Chelsea & West Ham hooligans smashing Europe up 'for their country'...

BTW, when it comes to Volspur's beliefs, until this thread I didn't know them, I probably wouldn't have known them, and such, anyone who believes but doesn't try to indoctrinate is absolutely fine by me! Good for you if it works for you mate...

this is where i stand too and why i have been very careful to try and not make the thread become a Christian vs non slanging match as we all know it is an argument that can come to very little conclusion other than faith vs science

its also the reason i asked the question about "who does Volspur (or any Christian) thing he is dictating that this is not my life to live". Having that opinion is fine. Dictating it and try to have it written in policy is not. (that said, see my point below re; % of Christians (and therefore voters) in the US. my view, of course, comes from a secular democracy)

my mum is a devote Christian and we almost always come to the topic of religion. she does find it very difficult to understand the attitudes of many Christians and how they can be so dispassionate.

its interesting that Volspur mentioned the core Christiand value of "loving the other person" - something which is, without doubt, a great virtue - and certainly one of the most important things we can implement in society (whether that be social or business).
but so many Christians (especially those is positions of power - and those are the ones we have to focus on in political debate as they are the decision makers, propoganda mongerers and ultimately the voice of Christianity within any society that combined religion and politics) use it as an excuse to disregard or gloss over breaking other parts of the bibles "teachings"

i dont believe in the super natural, and therefore the basis upon which religion relies simply makes no sense to me

what does make sense is the morals and ethics it was built on (by man, IMHO - initially for good and developed for politics and gain)

US politics and religion have very little seperation - and for a country of 75% (?) Christianity i suppose that makes sense - so the subject has to be discussed.

the problem with the bible and its "teachings" is that most of those morals and behaviours are in line with a 2000 year old society (not a "better" society - just a different one), but many of them are now so outdated they dont fit in with what modern society considers reasonable, but because the power of Christianity is so great and close minded when it comes to anything they "dont like and may, possibly, somewhere, be a little different to what the bible says (or how that scet of Christianity understands the bible (which of course depends on which edition you are looking at))" Christianity just bullies things through using politics and a repressive mentality. (see Prop 8)

 

[elltrev]

Nope.

A 3rd of the population of London are immigrants, and Tottenham is a few miles away with the best transport system in the world, from millions of jobs.

I think a lot of the divide in these kinds of debates stems from differences in opinion as to the importance of structure and agency (sorry to use those waffley academic terms, but I couldn't think how else to put it in two words). I seem to remember that you grew up on a council estate but are now pretty successful in terms of money, so it's natural I think that you place more emphasis on the idea that individuals have the freedom to achieve what they want through hard work, and have less sympathy for the idea that a lot of people have social obstacles that stop them from achieving certain things. But personally I do think that most people are the product of the environment that they grow up in, and as a society we have to change a lot of our bad environments / communities for the better if we want to see improvements in the people who live in them. And I'm not just talking about education, I'm talking about a change in the culture too.

The trouble with immigration is that it creates 'unequal' competition in my view; it pits the 'lowest' in our own country against some of the 'highest' - the most motivated and capable people - of most other countries in the world... it's inevitable that millions of British people are going to lose that competition, and so are going to be left chronically unemployed. And obviously unemployment itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy / vicious circle.

As far as Panorama goes, just shows what a weird country USA can be... the 'American Dream' and the idea of agency is so entrenched within their culture... I'm always most shocked by the view that healthcare is something that should be paid for by individuals, and tough titties if you can't afford it.

 

[Leeds Spur]

Excellent post, especially in regard to the worst of our population and the best of others.

My wife runs a recruitment agency and she regularly get CV's from Poles with Masters Degrees applying for office admin roles paying ?ú15-20k