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Panorama, 13th feb - crumbling USA

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by monkeybarry, 14 Feb 2012.

  1. monkeybarry

    monkeybarry Justin Edinburgh

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    Did anyone watch this last night?

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/default.stm

    Just wondered if anyone (esp our US posters) had an opinion regarding the situation and/or whether the journalism is an accurate representation of what is currently happening to US society

    Personally, it left me feeling angry, sad and ashamed
     
  2. WookieD

    WookieD Didier Zokora

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    Didn't see it. Care to wrap it up in a paragraph? Is Mt.Rushmore falling to pieces or do they mean the moral fabric?
     
  3. Leeds Spur

    Leeds Spur Banned

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    Socialised medicine is bad OK!!

    WE WILL NOT TOLERATE ANY CRITICISM!

    The way the richest country on earth look after the poorest in their society is a fudging joke.....and this coming from a 'Christian' nation......not sure what bible they read over there! :)

    I'm a Tory but we look after our needy, just need to get the lazy clams off the welfare and we can really start to look after the elderly and those in true need.
     
  4. Gifter

    Gifter William Gallas

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    Completely agree with the first part.

    But, for someone who has fervent political beliefs you don't seem to have much of a grasp of capitalism. All forms of capitalism require a structure, where one pre-requisite is for a % to be unemployed to maintain low levels of inflation, this ensures that workers cannot name their price in jobs etc. This very requisite means that formation of underclasses are inevitable, to then blame said underclass for forming a culture of not even wanting to work, for me, is just bizarre.

    What are the 8% supposed to do? I don't see the wealthy elite creating sponsored work or supporting healthy social persuits which inspire aspiration in deprived areas, almost all those who don't wish to work are doing what they see as possible, within their social sphere, to make their lives tolerable and personally I see blaming them for societies ill's as a blinkered socio-political view... 'those f*cking lazy africans, can't even be bothered to work for food' is a crudely amplified analogy.

    It's easy to retort with, well I (or some people I know) came from one of those estates and I got out and made something of myself, but when the highest percentage of peers on those estates are making their lives the best they perceive they can be by having children or engaging in crime is it surprising that this becomes aspirational to alot of people on those estates. Let's say a young child sees his parents dilligently looking for work year after year, their self esteem is shattered by continual failures. Then that child, as he/she grows, sees their peers with parents who are more than happy because they don't burden themselves with largely futile attempts at gaining employment, whilst others seem to live a privileged life because their parents engage crime, which would these children see, in the most part, as aspirational?
     
  5. Crab.C.Nesbitt

    Crab.C.Nesbitt Steven Caulker

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    I remember a few years ago watching a report, think it was either part of a documentary or on the news, about some mining disaster in the US due to inadequate health & safety precautions. The miners families were seeking compensation, but unbelievably some Christian group had organised a protest against these families being paid compensation as it was an act of GHod!!! I was so angry I nearly put my foot through the tv!!! There are some very weird branches of Christianity out there!
     
  6. scaramanga

    scaramanga Les Howe Staff Member

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    That only works in the theoretical island economy.

    In reality, increased living standards create an increase in demand for immigration which keeps the price of labour down.
     
  7. Leeds Spur

    Leeds Spur Banned

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    Nice way to start your patronising lesson.

    Care to explain why unemployment was around 1% in Japan for 50 years?

    Don't they use capitalism there?

    You might be a clue if the same 8% were unemployed constantly. In reality the people who have lost their jobs in the recession will get anothyer job. They are not the underclass you talk of.

    Multi-generational underclass is a product of environment and breeding, not an inevitable consequence of capitalism, put that Sociology A-Level book down, take your head out of your arse and get a fudging clue, OK?

    I am the person you refer to in your anaology, council estate, single parent family blah blah blah........you are NOT a victim in life.

    Also - given we have had 2 million low paid workers from eastern europe in the past 10 years to fill the roles our underclass cannot or will not do, your point is patently gonads.

    Our problem is with a welfare trap where it doesn't pay to work, and with an education system that still churns out too many illiterate numpties or those with zero social skills.

    If we fudged off said eastern europeans we would have FULL EMPLOYMENT for all UK born nationals.

    These are the facts you seem to want to ignore.

    Now - get back to your revision sunshine and next time you try to talk down to me get a fudging clue, yeah?

    There's a good lad.
     
  8. papaspur

    papaspur Allan Nielsen

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    It's true: we're a third world country. Politicians don't care for the extremely poor, especially Republicans. Religion in this country is a farce, as Christians seem more bent on telling people what they can't do as opposed to helping the needy (thankfully, exceptions do exist). Furthermore, religion is the crux upon which all the problems in our country hinge upon, in my opinion. Christians as a whole obviously don't practice what they preach. I still can't believe that around 3/4 of the country is Christian, because many Americans act like jerk-asses, are materialistic, probably toss non-stop, and worst of all, they think they have the right to pass judgment onto others. When everyone thinks they're infallible but are all wrong, we just end up with everyone point fingers at one another. That is our political system. Republican candidates have created a separate reality for themselves, but they've also projected their demons onto others outside their plastic-wrapped veneer.

    The 'moral fabric' of our society is an issue that's been coming up a lot recently. Everything in our society is catered to benefit those that are at the top of the pyramid, but as we all know, the brick always rolls downhill.
     
  9. Gifter

    Gifter William Gallas

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    Your retort is way more talking down than I did to you, I presented an opposing view, with the most inflamatory element being suggesting your vision of capitalism was poor, you retort with vitriolic abuse...

    Japan had 1% for 50 years you say as a defense, that is still a percentage unemployed is it not? How is that a cogent defense?

    8% is just those currently unemployed, with posterity measures that could easily statnate for a long time, when have we had full employment? And I wasn't even suggesting they were the underclass, but that some may become it.

    For you to claim it is solely breeding and environment is absurd, when political structure enforces the environment onto individuals.

    The eastern europeans came in with better working ethic, as even the most menial of jobs were well paid here, relative to the salaries in their native lands, it was not to fill jobs which would not be done otherwise, get a grip, produce for me one article which shows that there was a labour shortage before the influx occured to back this up. So before this we had zero unemployment I assume? No, did we fudge.

    Being aggressive in your argument does not make it any more valid. As the heightened use of expletives in mine does not either.

    I'm not arguing that making it not pay to work is right, but that those who are so disenfranchised by their lot, may have good reason and I think most people use these groups as spacegoats for their lives frustrations.

    [​IMG]

    This graph shows some low eb's but where it their zero unemployment?

    [​IMG]

    Or here? even after the recent shifts into figure manipluation to lessen these statistics (a labour policy I think, I'm not just singling out your precious tories here).

    I know I am an idealist, but I'd rather aspire to unattainable dreams than make do with the exploitative system we now reside within.
     
  10. papaspur

    papaspur Allan Nielsen

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    Who gives a brick about inflation? People are starving either way.

    If you're going to show an inflation graph, it should include at least up to 2010.

    [​IMG]

    And here's one for the US:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 14 Feb 2012
  11. Gifter

    Gifter William Gallas

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    Maybe the african analogy was poor form though, sorry.
     
  12. NewYorkSpurs

    NewYorkSpurs Steven Caulker

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    Anyone who criticizes the US is a communist. fudge off.
     
  13. VolSpur

    VolSpur Ramon Vega

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    "especially republicans" - don't know how biased or slanted this statement is... But to say Republicans as a whole don't care for the extremely poor is terribly ignorant. Its like saying all pizza's are pepperoni or something.. just isn't true.

    "Christians seem more bent on telling people what they can't do as opposed to helping the needy" - it is sad that there are many who take a single verse out of context and use it to tell others whats right and wrong but again this isn't always the true picture of how Christ has called us to live.

    "Christians as a whole obviously don't practice what they preach." - Again with the grouping all Christians into a single stereotype... And to an extent I would actually agree with you. We are called to live as Christ, perfectly, but all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of GHod (Rom 3:23). This is why there's Grace. We fail, and beg forgiveness. Christianity is the only religion that doesn't base acceptance into heaven or some higher place on how good we are. We are simply asked to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). The good works will come as a fruit of our faith.

    "I still can't believe that around 3/4 of the country is Christian" - I could only dream this were true. There's not a chance of this. Many claim such, but in no way live out their lives in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). I could claim I'm an NBA center averaging a triple-double every night but that's just not true now is it?

    "Republican candidates have created a separate reality for themselves, but they've also projected their demons onto others outside their plastic-wrapped veneer." - lols at how slanted you are. was poetic though
     
  14. Gifter

    Gifter William Gallas

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    The US is a very naughty country...

    I'd rather be a commie than a yank
    I'd rather be a commie than a yank
    I'd rather be a commie
    Rather be a commie
    I'd Rather be a commie than a yank

    Just kidding, kind of!
     
  15. Gifter

    Gifter William Gallas

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    Leeds, this seems to utterley contradict your Japan assertion;

    Japan Unemployment Rate

    The unemployment rate in Japan was last reported at 4.6 percent in December of 2011. From 1953 until 2010, Japan's Unemployment Rate averaged 2.60 percent reaching an historical high of 5.60 percent in July of 2009 and a record low of 1.00 percent in November of 1968. The labour force is defined as the number of people employed plus the number unemployed but seeking work. The nonlabour force includes those who are not looking for work, those who are institutionalised and those serving in the military. This page includes: Japan Unemployment Rate chart, historical data and news.

    Maybe you should get back to your studies 'sunny'...
     
  16. NewYorkSpurs

    NewYorkSpurs Steven Caulker

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    Oh Japan, with your fuzzy numbers. In most countries, the term unemployed includes those OUT OF WORK seeking work.
     
  17. papaspur

    papaspur Allan Nielsen

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    VolSpur, I am typing with a wide brush... er, you know what I mean!
    However, I still stand by what I said. The reason I'm generalizing is that it would take too long to rehash my arguments from other threads, but I will do so now since you've bought it up. Here's what I've seen from our Congress to illustrate my point.

    When talking about the budget, Republicans have been over-eager to cut safety net programs. The Paul Ryan budget plan is a joke. Admittedly, Bush added some power to Medicare, but I'm talking about Republicans post-Obama.
    Basically, Ryan's budget plan looked to slash lots of social safety net programs. Republicans have entrenched themselves, using obstructionist tactics (such as the filibuster) to ensure Democrats do not gain any political victories. I think they've threatened to let our government shutdown twice now. Why? The first time, it was to preserve tax-cuts for the wealthy. The second time was disaster aid. I have no respect for most politicians, but especially those that are willing to hold essential government programs hostage while Americans suffer.

    And by the way, I'm not a Democrat. I'm a liberal, but I am unaffiliated.
    The Tea Party is a largely neo-conservative, Christian movement. They're easy to pick on because of their extreme-right views. However, after the 2010 elections in Congress, many Tea Party-affiliated politicians were elected and had some sway in dictating Republican strategies in Congress.

    As for Christians, I think I pointed out that there are of course some that do good work and give to their communities. I used to attend service at a church in Cambridge, MA, that gave back to the community and whose members were genuinely nice people.
    Needless to say, my beliefs have changed in the past few years. I don't mean this as an attack on all Christians, so I apologize if it came off like that.

    Which begs the question: if the US is roughly 3/4 Christian, why are there so many assholes? Again, I'd say politicians are the snakes here (to use a Christian analogy), who are shameless in maintaining their power while padding themselves and their cronies. Again, not ALL politicians are bad, but I'm convinced that many are.
    Politicians can use divisive issues and the media constructs these issues in a way such that both sides have merit. Are you really going to tell me the Earth was created 6,000 years ago, with all the inhabitants co-existing all at once? Well, that's what loads of people want to teach in schools (either alongside evolution, or in place of it).

    A study from 2009 found that roughly 60-75% of Americans self-identify as Christian. 83% identify with A religion. Now, how many of those are ACTUALLY Christian will be impossible to tell.
    Do you think that citizens have the right to tell other citizens whether they can get an abortion or not? Or whether homosexuals can get married? I'm sure you will find a few Democrats that think that way, but an overwhelming majority of people that actually DO think they hold that right are conservatives.

    I'm not putting all the blame of our nation's problems on conservatives, but if you think that I am slanted just because I am slating what conservatism means in America in this day, then just read the news and see what Republicans are in favor for (small government, large defense budget), and more importantly, what they are against (birth control, social safety net programs, public education, science, facts).
     
  18. Leeds Spur

    Leeds Spur Banned

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    So at its lowest unemployment was 1.48 million, and we let in 2 million eastern europeans.

    I rest my case.

    The 1% in Japan were unemployable due to drug abuse etc, full employment is the natural equilibrium of capitalism.......the long term unemployed in this country are so becuase they WANT TO BE, nothing more nothing less.

    I can be aggressive and righ, you started the downward tone of our discourse, I responded.

    That nice graph shows that unemployment came down under the Tories, then stagnated under Labour once the welfare state increased, i.e.the incentive to work was removed.

    Classic welfare dependency!
     
  19. VolSpur

    VolSpur Ramon Vega

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    fair play then. just got my toes stepped on a bit. I dont consider myself well versed in current political affairs so Im not even gonna try with that one.. this'll be my second election I'm able to vote in for the POTUS, and I'll be voting based upon the candidate not the party.

    On: "Do you think that citizens have the right to tell other citizens whether they can get an abortion or not? Or whether homosexuals can get married?" - This is a tricky one, and its quite easy to step on a few toes if one goes about it the wrong way (or even the right way for that matter... no one likes being told they're doing something wrong).

    As a Christian, I know what the Bible tells us about both abortion and gay marriage. I see nothing wrong with warning someone of the sin they are treading in. However it is extremely hard to do this. We must warn others out of love for them, not out of hate (oftentimes you'll see this in street side preachers (most of which make me sick to my stomach) that point fingers and yell at any walker-by). This hatred is misplaced. We are to hate the sin, not the sinner. To love one another so much that we are willing to occasionally point out that a brother or sister is in sin (though inevitably some form of "the bible says not to judge" comes back at us) because we long for them to walk in the light (1 John 1:7).

    Abortion and Gay Marriage are in the same likeness as lust, greed, and covetousness, but happen to be much easier to see than the latter 3. No one likes being told they are doing something wrong (myself included) but if I am rebuked about any of these, I could only thank GHod that I was shown where I was wrong so I may ask forgiveness.

    Interesting that you bought up birth control because it seems there is more grey area in this topic than with most. I have many Christian friends recently married that are using it to ensure they don't have a baby. I honestly see no problem with this because GHod gave us a knowledge and ability to create this just like advil or tylenol. On the other side of the coin (typically i find this in Catholic beliefs) is that birth control is "playing the role of GHod" or just the same as abortion. To this, I can't say i agree. But i can see this side of the argument.
     
  20. Leeds Spur

    Leeds Spur Banned

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    Source?

    And people can be unemployed with jobs available!

    There are 700,000 vacancies in the Uk at the moment for instance.

    So no, back to your idealistic BS.
     

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