***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Borussia Dortmund - first leg***

[braineclipse]

I kind of agree with you in spirit; we should be able to handle two competitions at this stage.
However, i honestly think the last two league results have caused jitters in the Spurs hierarchy and perhaps Poch himself is worried about fatigue setting in (as is often the case at this stage with 'high-pressing' teams). You have to also bear in mind that Poch himself is not used to being in a hunt for a CL place as a manager (let alone a title race!) and i think a 'solidify and keep what we have' approach has set in with the various parts of Spurs Management.

I honestly think if we'd gone on to beat Arsenal (and let's face it we really should have) and spent even a few hours on top of the PL, we'd have played one or two more first-teamers yestrerday. It's the fear of us "Spurs.ing things up" that led to the team selection yesterday imo..and when you look at it like that, can you blame him/us?

What stage is it that we're at that we should be able to handle tow competitions at?

-Less than two years after Pochettino took over squad that was in disarray?
-In the middle of weeks and weeks of playing two games a week in multiple competitions?
-At the stage of a season where we're mounting a serious title challenge for the first time in just about forever?

Pochettino made a priority I think. And one that can quite easily be seen as rational and defended if one chooses to give him even the slightest benefit of the doubt. I don't think that's fear.

 

[StephenH]

Mate.
We are dealing with injuries and fatigue. A suspension in there too.
Both Rose and Dier had knocks against the Filth.
He has NO FEAR of that term you've used...he is managing the club, that's all, managing the squad, and doing so with a lot more information than any of the sideline coaches here. There isn't a Spurs fan that isn't disappointed by Thursday night, but IMO, there should also not be a Spurs fan who doesn't believe he made the selection he made because it was the best decision he could make for the club given all the balls he had to juggle. My belief is that he has earned that level of trust.

Good post.

I feel for those that went to the match. It sounds like there was poor crowd control on top of the disappointment of the result. But taking my Spurs hat off and just being a football fan, Dortmund were a pleasure to watch and I would love to experience that atmosphere. I have seen thier last dozen or so matches in the league and did not see many beating them ATM. Tuchel is doing a very good job, he was my first choice before Poch arrived, but no complaints. We nearly had LVG I was frightened at the time.

 

[Robspur12]

Have you read the subsequent posts where I explain what I meant? I would be amazed if anyone went to that game who had not considered the possibility that players would be rested.

Still a very poor and disrespectful choice of words especially as I assume you didn't put your hand in your pocket to go. Anyway I've. had enough of this thread it's going round in circles.

 

[Libero]

Wow, I am really surprised that you have that opinion as I have always thought you were a reasonable type of guy.



Mind you may have a point and I am a fool, having spent the best part of three days traveling to and from Germany ( and spent several hundred pounds doing it) expecting to see a strong Spurs side take on one the best teams in Europe ( who are chasing a treble) how foolish of me to expect us to put out a side who would be able to not beat them maybe but to at least give them a good game.



Instead Poch ( and before going any further I have said on here that I think he is doing a great job and have no problems with what he had done) however that team was never going to be able to compete at that level, the vast majority of the fans at the game, in the bars after and on the way home were gobsmacked that he choose such a weak side and they all said on hearing the side that we would be lucky to escape a heavy defeat ( and it really could have been a lot worse in reality).

As I have said before ( in other threads) I am not one to moan about ticket prices and no one holds a gun against my head and makes me goes to these games ( so its my OWN fault when I see these things happen). Now I have someone suggesting I am a fool because I was naïve enough to believe we would have named a stronger side, as I said maybe I am and what I should do is give up my ST and buy 50 inch TV and become a armchair supporter and be satisfied with that, then when guys who do get of their arses and make the effort to actually go and support their team moan about the weak sides in major games I can call them fools.



Poor form Milo from you, poor form.

I am normally pretty optimistic with my feelings and quite thoughtful with thinking through all the scenarios but I am massively disappointed by what Pochettino did on Thursday. Its incredibly disrespectful to those of us that travelled to Germany using different methods to get there because the airlines took the tinkle with prices as is standard and spent hard money and time in the expectation of seeing a side able to compete with Dortmund and have the tie still at least with a chance in the second leg. That is now gone and the fact that the club took money for the second leg and made it Cat C prior to this result is a tinkletake.

The team selection was a joke and no one can persuade me otherwise. I am aware of all the possibilities regarding fitness and being near the red zone etc but if Kane, Lamela and Dembele are on the bench and come on then they can start and come come off after an hour. You have more chance of injuring yourself coming on from cold in a game like that so that for me doesn't wash. Dier could've been rested on Sunday rather than Thursday and we would not have been worse off considering we are playing a team so devoid of confidence it isn't true. This was a big tie and a chance to represent the club and our league as being top quality and it was an embarrassment quite frankly.

Carroll and Onomah are not good enough for that level and I am not even going to debate that with anyone because it was clear especially with Carroll just how limited he is when not playing against dross in our league. Davies and Trippier also didn't help the situation and showed a basic lack of understanding by continually playing that ball to Onomah, Chadli or Carroll despite it always coming back. If I did that 2-3 times when I played and it wasn't working then I changed it myself, I didn't wait for an instruction. I would knock a few balls into the channel to turn their team and gain a little territory further up the pitch and then build from there. Get a foothold in the game and stop giving the ball freely to them, at least if they are going to have you can put them immediately under pressure. It just showed a complete lack of intelligence and game management. Pochettino has to bear responsibility for that and you wont find many people who don't think he is doing a great job but sometimes he has got it very wrong and this is one of those times. Being a nodding dog or ostrich just because you think you should be ever thankful to the guy is the wrong attitude. If someone is wrong then they are wrong and people voicing that should not be shouted down.

We are midway through march and the season has 8 weeks to go with an international break in a fortnight, play your strongest available team in each match and see where it takes you. Thursday night was not our strongest available team and far from it and everyone, especially those who went over there have a right to be annoyed by that. When Man Utd were going for the treble in '99 or Liverpool in 2001 they didn't play a team like that against Inter at the San Siro or Barcelona at the Nou Camp. They went with a strong side with tweaks where necessary and saw where it took them. We are in two competitions and we are doing things like that? It just is a nonsense to me to be honest. Too much of this buying into having to rotate, rotate, rotate and buying into what the media drive is at a particular time. 10-15 years ago our elite teams were playing 55-60 games a season no issue but suddenly its an issue and players can't do it? People are buying into the wrong thing and being hoodwinked.

We are not privy to all the reasons and points on how that team will have been picked but that was not our strongest available side because stronger players came on so the were clearly fit, we have ruined the tie now and have less than a 10% chance of getting any sort of qualifying result and quite possibly have damaged the teams morale in the short term with an embarrassing defeat that left players chasing shadows.

And anyone getting holier than thou about peoples thoughts on the game and selection when they didn't go themselves in that situation seriously need to have a look at themselves. Put yourselves in the shoes of those who did travel to a distant airport and get a train then to Dortmund or those who got a 7 hr train from London spending hard earned money and time with numerous other things going on in their lives trying to show their love and support for the club and they are thanked like that.

 

[parklane1]

I am normally pretty optimistic with my feelings and quite thoughtful with thinking through all the scenarios but I am massively disappointed by what Pochettino did on Thursday. Its incredibly disrespectful to those of us that travelled to Germany using different methods to get there because the airlines took the tinkle with prices as is standard and spent hard money and time in the expectation of seeing a side able to compete with Dortmund and have the tie still at least with a chance in the second leg. That is now gone and the fact that the club took money for the second leg and made it Cat C prior to this result is a tinkletake.

The team selection was a joke and no one can persuade me otherwise. I am aware of all the possibilities regarding fitness and being near the red zone etc but if Kane, Lamela and Dembele are on the bench and come on then they can start and come come off after an hour. You have more chance of injuring yourself coming on from cold in a game like that so that for me doesn't wash. Dier could've been rested on Sunday rather than Thursday and we would not have been worse off considering we are playing a team so devoid of confidence it isn't true. This was a big tie and a chance to represent the club and our league as being top quality and it was an embarrassment quite frankly.

Carroll and Onomah are not good enough for that level and I am not even going to debate that with anyone because it was clear especially with Carroll just how limited he is when not playing against dross in our league. Davies and Trippier also didn't help the situation and showed a basic lack of understanding by continually playing that ball to Onomah, Chadli or Carroll despite it always coming back. If I did that 2-3 times when I played and it wasn't working then I changed it myself, I didn't wait for an instruction. I would knock a few balls into the channel to turn their team and gain a little territory further up the pitch and then build from there. Get a foothold in the game and stop giving the ball freely to them, at least if they are going to have you can put them immediately under pressure. It just showed a complete lack of intelligence and game management. Pochettino has to bear responsibility for that and you wont find many people who don't think he is doing a great job but sometimes he has got it very wrong and this is one of those times. Being a nodding dog or ostrich just because you think you should be ever thankful to the guy is the wrong attitude. If someone is wrong then they are wrong and people voicing that should not be shouted down.

We are midway through march and the season has 8 weeks to go with an international break in a fortnight, play your strongest available team in each match and see where it takes you. Thursday night was not our strongest available team and far from it and everyone, especially those who went over there have a right to be annoyed by that. When Man Utd were going for the treble in '99 or Liverpool in 2001 they didn't play a team like that against Inter at the San Siro or Barcelona at the Nou Camp. They went with a strong side with tweaks where necessary and saw where it took them. We are in two competitions and we are doing things like that? It just is a nonsense to me to be honest. Too much of this buying into having to rotate, rotate, rotate and buying into what the media drive is at a particular time. 10-15 years ago our elite teams were playing 55-60 games a season no issue but suddenly its an issue and players can't do it? People are buying into the wrong thing and being hoodwinked.

We are not privy to all the reasons and points on how that team will have been picked but that was not our strongest available side because stronger players came on so the were clearly fit, we have ruined the tie now and have less than a 10% chance of getting any sort of qualifying result and quite possibly have damaged the teams morale in the short term with an embarrassing defeat that left players chasing shadows.

And anyone getting holier than thou about peoples thoughts on the game and selection when they didn't go themselves in that situation seriously need to have a look at themselves. Put yourselves in the shoes of those who did travel to a distant airport and get a train then to Dortmund or those who got a 7 hr train from London spending hard earned money and time with numerous other things going on in their lives trying to show their love and support for the club and they are thanked like that.

Very good post which I could not agree with more the only exception is the bit about Onomah, to be honest I have not seen enough of him to know if he will make it here or not. However to throw a young kid with very little experience into a game of this magnitude against one of the top teams in Europe was a BIG mistake by Poch ( and I say again I am a big fan of Poch) as for Carroll I do like the way he plays but to ask him to do a job like he had to do and worse then that pair him with Mason ( who I still fail to see the hype that so many give him) was not doing Carroll any favours and they were both overrun.

I could not agree more with your last paragraph, I guess it must be easy for those sat on their arses at home in front of their TV's to say what did we ( the traveling fans who are complaining about the team selection expect) and called fools, but its a different position when you have travelled a round trip of several hundred miles and taken time off work to do so ( I'm lucky I do not have to but several of the guys I go with had to).

 

[milo]

Still a very poor and disrespectful choice of words especially as I assume you didn't put your hand in your pocket to go. Anyway I've. had enough of this thread it's going round in circles.

I didn't go to Dortmund but I have done away games.

I don't think what I said was disrespectful but maybe I was not as clear as I should have been.

Was it reasonable for someone to buy a ticket expecting a full strength team when Poch has played weakened teams in Europe and the cups reasonably often? I don't think it was but I can understand why anyone buying a ticket would hope to see that and us going toe to toe with one of the best sides in Europe.

 

[Hemant]

There are lessons to be learnt but now we have put our eggs in the Premier League basket, let's go for it. No excuses, pick the best available side (fitness permitting) to beat the opposition in front of us. No acceptance of draws and damage limiting defeats.

We might still come a cropper but let's not die thinking what if.

 

[Modric THFC]

I didn't go to Dortmund but I have done away games.

I don't think what I said was disrespectful but maybe I was not as clear as I should have been.

Was it reasonable for someone to buy a ticket expecting a full strength team when Poch has played weakened teams in Europe and the cups reasonably often? I don't think it was but I can understand why anyone buying a ticket would hope to see that and us going toe to toe with one of the best sides in Europe.

I don't how anyone expected a strong team. We do this half arsed team selection in the knock out rounds every season. We reached only the quarter finals twice in the last 11 seasons (getting to the Europa/uefa knock outs 8 times).

 

[Baleforce]

I thought Onomah was our best player and fully deserving of his selection.

 

[Libero]

Very good post which I could not agree with more the only exception is the bit about Onomah, to be honest I have not seen enough of him to know if he will make it here or not. However to throw a young kid with very little experience into a game of this magnitude against one of the top teams in Europe was a BIG mistake by Poch ( and I say again I am a big fan of Poch) as for Carroll I do like the way he plays but to ask him to do a job like he had to do and worse then that pair him with Mason ( who I still fail to see the hype that so many give him) was not doing Carroll any favours and they were both overrun.

I could not agree more with your last paragraph, I guess it must be easy for those sat on their arses at home in front of their TV's to say what did we ( the traveling fans who are complaining about the team selection expect) and called fools, but its a different position when you have travelled a round trip of several hundred miles and taken time off work to do so ( I'm lucky I do not have to but several of the guys I go with had to).

I am possibly being a bit strong on Onomah although in the times I have seen him I am not sure exactly what he is or where he plays. All I know is I don't think he is currently of sufficient standard to be playing and that of course is down to the manager if he is picking him. I thought he was poor against Palace and offered very little so what made Pochettino think he was good enough for Dortmund is beyond me.

The selection is all the more baffling of Carroll with Mason considering Mason's natural position is not in the two but behind the forward as a no.10. So you have one player who is not a natural holding player with one who is so lightweight. It was never going to end well really.

I have no issues with people disagreeing or wanting to back the manager, that is absolutely fine but to blindly follow regardless is not for me. If Poch makes and error then I am definitely going to say it is an error if that is how I feel and I don't care who disagrees with me. He has been great for us and done a solid and spectacular job at times this season but he has made two major errors for me with Thursday being one and the selection for the Arsenal league cup game which underestimated how much our fans want to compete directly with Arsenal in a 90 minute game.

 

[Libero]

I didn't go to Dortmund but I have done away games.

I don't think what I said was disrespectful but maybe I was not as clear as I should have been.

Was it reasonable for someone to buy a ticket expecting a full strength team when Poch has played weakened teams in Europe and the cups reasonably often? I don't think it was but I can understand why anyone buying a ticket would hope to see that and us going toe to toe with one of the best sides in Europe.

Milo,

I don't think anyone would have complained if the rotation was limited. I don't think it is a lot to expect that when you are drawn against one of the best sides in Europe on current status that a side is picked that is competitive and gives you a chance of staying in the tie and ready for the second leg. The tie is now finished and quite frankly the second leg is now pointless because of the team that was put out. Some games are obvious to rotate heaily for and some games obvious that you don't rotate heavily and I think it is obvious that tursday under almost any circumstance was not a game that you heavily rotate for.

If you are being honest, I am sure that as oon as you saw that team line up and watched the first 10 minutes or so you were saying to yourself this could get silly here and for me, in a last 16 tie with a European heavyweight, is unacceptable. We either want to be in these competitions or we don't. I don't see the point in attempting to qualify, going through the group and so forth if we are going to do that. He should have just thrown the tie against Fiorentina if that is how he really feels about the number of games.

 

[Baleforce]

Milo,

I don't think anyone would have complained if the rotation was limited. I don't think it is a lot to expect that when you are drawn against one of the best sides in Europe on current status that a side is picked that is competitive and gives you a chance of staying in the tie and ready for the second leg. The tie is now finished and quite frankly the second leg is now pointless because of the team that was put out. Some games are obvious to rotate heaily for and some games obvious that you don't rotate heavily and I think it is obvious that tursday under almost any circumstance was not a game that you heavily rotate for.

If you are being honest, I am sure that as oon as you saw that team line up and watched the first 10 minutes or so you were saying to yourself this could get silly here and for me, in a last 16 tie with a European heavyweight, is unacceptable. We either want to be in these competitions or we don't. I don't see the point in attempting to qualify, going through the group and so forth if we are going to do that. He should have just thrown the tie against Fiorentina if that is how he really feels about the number of games.

it was pretty limited, the back 5 was the normal one, Alli and Dier were unavailable, Kane and Lamela were knackered (the only real "rotation selection"), Demebele is still recovering from injury (meaning he's not been regular lately anyway), Onomha was the only rookie that came in, the rest were established squad members

it's not like we made 11 changes and fielded a load of youngsters, it was still a very recognisable Spurs 11 that none of us would have qualms over starting a PL game

if anything Poch only had a choice to make over two positions

 

[Libero]

it was pretty limited, the back 5 was the normal one, Alli and Dier were unavailable, Kane and Lamela were knackered (the only real "rotation selection"), Demebele is still recovering from injury (meaning he's not been regular lately anyway), Onomha was the only rookie that came in, the rest were established squad members

it's not like we made 11 changes and fielded a load of youngsters, it was still a very recognisable Spurs 11 that none of us would have qualms over starting a PL game

if anything Poch only had a choice to make over two positions

Dier was unable to play because he was knackered? I think he could have played Thursday and not Sunday if that was the case so I don't see the point in saving him for the freescoring powerhouses that are Aston Villa. Dembele was fine to start, he did play against Arsenal no? All those players that would have given us a pretty strong 11 could have started and then come off rather than the completely pointless other way round which actually risks more injury. If they so basdly needing of a rest then I would suggest not taking them at all and/or bringing them on.

My point is in a game like that you play your strongest 11 available and make changes throughout the game accordingly. We didn't do that and we are now where are and going out of Europe in an embarrassing fashion. I would hope he plays virtually no one in the second leg or I will be extremely angry about the backward way he has dealt with this tie.

 

[Baleforce]

Dier was unable to play because he was knackered? I think he could have played Thursday and not Sunday if that was the case so I don't see the point in saving him for the freescoring powerhouses that are Aston Villa. Dembele was fine to start, he did play against Arsenal no? All those players that would have given us a pretty strong 11 could have started and then come off rather than the completely pointless other way round which actually risks more injury. If they so basdly needing of a rest then I would suggest not taking them at all and/or bringing them on.

My point is in a game like that you play your strongest 11 available and make changes throughout the game accordingly. We didn't do that and we are now where are and going out of Europe in an embarrassing fashion. I would hope he plays virtually no one in the second leg or I will be extremely angry about the backward way he has dealt with this tie.

Dier was injured wasn't he, I thought he didn't travel?

"Strongest team" is just a matter of opinion unless you are privy to exact fitness and energy information, mine is that a fully fit Mason is a better player than a half fit Dembele (who I don't think would have played Sunday had it not been the NLD). You can disagree with that by all means, but neither opinion is a provable fact.

I'll also say (again), that it's not a matter of resting players for villa, it's a matter of resting players who were over used in the two London derbies in the last week. Does anyone think we should have rested players, Kane for example, against Arsenal for Dortmund?

Suggesting that exiting the tournament here is embarrassing is wholly disrespectful to Dortmund.

 

[Modric THFC]

What stage is it that we're at that we should be able to handle tow competitions at?

-Less than two years after Pochettino took over squad that was in disarray?
-In the middle of weeks and weeks of playing two games a week in multiple competitions?
-At the stage of a season where we're mounting a serious title challenge for the first time in just about forever?

Pochettino made a priority I think. And one that can quite easily be seen as rational and defended if one chooses to give him even the slightest benefit of the doubt. I don't think that's fear.

Why did it take him until February to decide to make the League the priority?
It was obvious anyone that the League was our best chance of the getting at least top 4 back in October or November.
Does he refuse to look at a league table until the second half of the season.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Why did it take him until February to decide to make the League the priority?
It was obvious anyone that the League was our best chance of the getting at least top 4 back in October or November.
Does he refuse to look at a league table until the second half of the season.

Even now, whilst I believe we have a good shot at the title and are capable of achieving it, I also, in contradiction, don't feel confident enough that even top 4 is 100% guaranteed - although granted something would have to go very wrong for us to drop out now. So if Poch had taken the view as far back as October or November, as you suggest, that the league should be the main focus, I would definitely have worried that we were putting all our eggs in one basket far too early in the season. At that point we had two paths to CL and it made sense (to me) to give them equal priority. Maybe now, 2nd in the league with 9 games remaining, where we know exactly who our remaining opponents are, it makes sense to give the league priority. I don't think it would have been a good thing to make that call 4 or 5 months ago, or even 1 month ago. To some extent it may depend on whether winning the EL is seen merely as a route to CL, or as a good opportunity to win trophy in its own right over CL. If we are looking first and foremost at CL, rather than trophies, then the league route probably does now take priority, but it didn't a few months ago.

Dier was unable to play because he was knackered? I think he could have played Thursday and not Sunday if that was the case so I don't see the point in saving him for the freescoring powerhouses that are Aston Villa. Dembele was fine to start, he did play against Arsenal no? All those players that would have given us a pretty strong 11 could have started and then come off rather than the completely pointless other way round which actually risks more injury. If they so basdly needing of a rest then I would suggest not taking them at all and/or bringing them on.
My point is in a game like that you play your strongest 11 available and make changes throughout the game accordingly. We didn't do that and we are now where are and going out of Europe in an embarrassing fashion. I would hope he plays virtually no one in the second leg or I will be extremely angry about the backward way he has dealt with this tie.

Mate, I totally understand your frustration. Especially as you gave the time, effort and expense to go out to Germany, where, like most of us, you would have had visions of us battling hard against Dortmund and coming away with, if not total Glory, at least something close. My worry about the bit of your post in bold above is that if Poch had started with some key players (Dembele, Lamela,Kane, for example) and if Dortmund had still managed to run rings around us, would Poch have been able to take them off after 60 mins, or would he have had to keep them playing the full 90? I can't imagine with us being under the cosh that taking off Dembele for Carroll, or Kane for Chadli, would have been the right thing let alone well received. I honestly believe he gambled that the starting 11, plus bringing key players off the bench if necessary, would have secured us enough to take back to the home leg. It clearly didn't work out, but I don't think it was a conscious decision to play a weak team nor to throw the tie, nor to disrespect the travelling fans or Dortmund. We are suddenly in a position where the league title is possible. For me, the league title is the biggest prize of all. As fans, we may have different views on whether possible = likely but it would be wholly negligent of Poch if he didn't now give the league a priority that might not have been due even a few weeks ago.

I can say all the above when trying to be objective about situation in which we find ourselves, but it doesn't mean I am not hugely disappointed at Thursday's outcome, nor that I think Poch was 100% right with his gamble. But I think I do understand why he took that gamble and it is really unfortunate that true fans like yourself have been left with a feeling of being let down when I am sure that was the last thing that was intended.

(As an aside, given all we know about Dortmund and the Yellow Wall etc., I felt so proud to hear our fans singing out loud and clear. Not meaning to sound patronising at all, but well done to all who were there).

 

[Libero]

Dier was injured wasn't he, I thought he didn't travel?

"Strongest team" is just a matter of opinion unless you are privy to exact fitness and energy information, mine is that a fully fit Mason is a better player than a half fit Dembele (who I don't think would have played Sunday had it not been the NLD). You can disagree with that by all means, but neither opinion is a provable fact.

I'll also say (again), that it's not a matter of resting players for villa, it's a matter of resting players who were over used in the two London derbies in the last week. Does anyone think we should have rested players, Kane for example, against Arsenal for Dortmund?

Suggesting that exiting the tournament here is embarrassing is wholly disrespectful to Dortmund.

Dier was left at home to be 'rested'.

I haven't suggested exiting here is embarrassing, you are putting words in my mouth. If you don't think the manner in which we lost is embarrassing then that is your opinion but I would be concerned if a broader number of our fanbase or indeed or players think that was not embarrassing.

There is a way to lose a football match and that was not it.

 

[Libero]

Even now, whilst I believe we have a good shot at the title and are capable of achieving it, I also, in contradiction, don't feel confident enough that even top 4 is 100% guaranteed - although granted something would have to go very wrong for us to drop out now. So if Poch had taken the view as far back as October or November, as you suggest, that the league should be the main focus, I would definitely have worried that we were putting all our eggs in one basket far too early in the season. At that point we had two paths to CL and it made sense (to me) to give them equal priority. Maybe now, 2nd in the league with 9 games remaining, where we know exactly who our remaining opponents are, it makes sense to give the league priority. I don't think it would have been a good thing to make that call 4 or 5 months ago, or even 1 month ago. To some extent it may depend on whether winning the EL is seen merely as a route to CL, or as a good opportunity to win trophy in its own right over CL. If we are looking first and foremost at CL, rather than trophies, then the league route probably does now take priority, but it didn't a few months ago.



Mate, I totally understand your frustration. Especially as you gave the time, effort and expense to go out to Germany, where, like most of us, you would have had visions of us battling hard against Dortmund and coming away with, if not total Glory, at least something close. My worry about the bit of your post in bold above is that if Poch had started with some key players (Dembele, Lamela,Kane, for example) and if Dortmund had still managed to run rings around us, would Poch have been able to take them off after 60 mins, or would he have had to keep them playing the full 90? I can't imagine with us being under the cosh that taking off Dembele for Carroll, or Kane for Chadli, would have been the right thing let alone well received. I honestly believe he gambled that the starting 11, plus bringing key players off the bench if necessary, would have secured us enough to take back to the home leg. It clearly didn't work out, but I don't think it was a conscious decision to play a weak team nor to throw the tie, nor to disrespect the travelling fans or Dortmund. We are suddenly in a position where the league title is possible. For me, the league title is the biggest prize of all. As fans, we may have different views on whether possible = likely but it would be wholly negligent of Poch if he didn't now give the league a priority that might not have been due even a few weeks ago.

I can say all the above when trying to be objective about situation in which we find ourselves, but it doesn't mean I am not hugely disappointed at Thursday's outcome, nor that I think Poch was 100% right with his gamble. But I think I do understand why he took that gamble and it is really unfortunate that true fans like yourself have been left with a feeling of being let down when I am sure that was the last thing that was intended.

(As an aside, given all we know about Dortmund and the Yellow Wall etc., I felt so proud to hear our fans singing out loud and clear. Not meaning to sound patronising at all, but well done to all who were there).

I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to get out of the competition, I think he made a big gamble and lost and in my opinion, it wasn't worth the gamble. A lot of people seem to be into this idea that it has to be one or the other in terms of the League or Europa. Why can't it be both? Why do we have to prioritise between two competitions when we have 8 weeks left in the season? If we get knocked out despite playing a reasonable side then that is fair enough but the team and the performance of those picked with the exception of a few has shown that in a tie like that you have to go with your strongest side or what is the point in even having got this far? It just makes the 2nd leg completely redundant without having really given it a go in the 1st leg.

 

[Baleforce]

Dier was left at home to be 'rested'.

I haven't suggested exiting here is embarrassing, you are putting words in my mouth. If you don't think the manner in which we lost is embarrassing then that is your opinion but I would be concerned if a broader number of our fanbase or indeed or players think that was not embarrassing.

There is a way to lose a football match and that was not it.

sorry, I was referring to your "going out of Europe in an embarrassing fashion" statement

I've seen us put in plenty of embarrassing performances over the last 30 years, in all
of them the embarrassment was a team of players just not trying, that's not what I saw on Thursday night, I saw a group of young players work their danglies off who were on the wrong end of an exceptional performance

 

[Libero]

sorry, I was referring to your "going out of Europe in an embarrassing fashion" statement

I've seen us put in plenty of embarrassing performances over the last 30 years, in all
of them the embarrassment was a team of players just not trying, that's not what I saw on Thursday night, I saw a group of young players work their danglies off who were on the wrong end of an exceptional performance

I thought Dortmund were very good and I think with our strongest 11 we would still have lost but I think we would still be in the tie. I think that is the most frustrating thing. If you give yourself a chance for the second leg then it doesn't matter what the result was in the 1st leg but that game is now a dead rubber and effectively worthless. I would have taken 3-1 before the game out there but I think we were lucky not to lose 5-0 in all honesty.