O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we think?

[milo]

I meant to post this last week but forgot. I've seen a few posts on here recently that have criticised this United team, I think it was when we were discussing Carrick. I don't agree with all of it but I thought that this article was interesting.

Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we think?

After dominating the Premier League and putting Real Madrid under pressure, it is time to praise Sir Alex Ferguson's side

Even in a week when they pretty much sealed the deal in the Premier League and left Madrid with their Champions League prospects still smelling of roses, there was not an enormous amount of love for Manchester United. There has not been all season.

Sure, David de Gea, Phil Jones and Jonny Evans, among others, were given credit for their displays at the Bernabéu. And faint-praise adjectives – resilient, dogged – found their way into match reports. But the suspicion lingers. This United side are nothing special.

The narrative is repeated to tedium. Their midfield is unfit to polish Roy Keane's Diadora Match Winner IIs. They have a dodgy keeper. They hit frequent flat spots. They are overreliant on Robin van Persie's specials.

And then there is the defence, which has conceded 31 league goals at an average of 1.19 per game – a mean (a word alien to United's back four this season) higher than any English champions since Ipswich shipped 67 goals in 42 games in 1961-62.

But here is the rub: when you compare United's points tally after 26 games to the greatest English sides of the past 30 years, it is up there. In fact way up there.

The United class of 2012-13 have 65 points – not only 14 points better off than the 1999 treble winners at this stage but, incredibly, more than any United side managed by Sir Alex Ferguson after 26 games.

Their tally is also better than Arsenal's Invincibles (64 points after 26 games in 2003-04). And equal to José Mourinho's 2004-05 Chelsea side, who went on to smash the Premier League points record.

Since three points for a win was introduced in 1981-82, only two sides have accumulated more than United's 2012-13 vintage after 26 matches: Kenny Dalglish's wonderful 1987-88 Liverpool team and Chelsea in 2005-06, who both had 66.

So, what is it to be? Are United much better than they are given credit for – or is the Premier League as uncompetitive as most people outside Sky Sports' promotional department suspect?

Certainly you can make the case for the latter. Emirates Marketing Project are on an epic post-title comedown. Chelsea seem stuck in some late-Brezhnevian limbo while the old guard cling on. And Arsenal are like a butterfly that has had its wings ripped off one by one.

But is this season's Premier League, say, really any less competitive than in 2010-11 when an average United team ground and pounded their way to the title? This time round they are romping away with it. They surely deserve a lot more credit.

Perhaps because their personnel have not changed much, people do not believe individuals' performances can either. But Michael Carrick is having his best season for at least four years while Evans has improved enormously, too.

And while De Gea gets stick, it's worth pointing out that United have allowed 116 shots on target this season, an average of 4.5 per game. That is higher than every United team – indeed every Premier League winner – since Opta started compiling such data in 2002. De Gea is letting in some but he is keeping plenty out too.

By contrast, Mourinho's Chelsea allowed 83 shots in his first season, while Arsenal's Invincibles were nearly as curmudgeonly.

But perhaps the old maxim, that defences win titles, does not hold like it once did. Changes in the offside rule and the way tackles are punished have tilted football in favour of attackers. Ferguson could be merely playing the odds.

Even one of his 2012-13 side's greatest strengths, their ability to come from behind, is acknowledged begrudgingly; as if they should not have conceded in the first place. But this was a quality venerated in the 1999-2003 sides. Perhaps the critics are taking an instinctive standpoint – they are a modest United team – and fitting the evidence to suit that, rather than judging them on their own terms.

But the narrative can be changed. We forget that the 1998-99 treble-winners, arguably Ferguson's greatest side, had their struggles. After Arsenal beat United 3-0, the Guardian's David Lacey wrote of a "listless, shapeless United side". In November, he warned of the "uncharacteristic errors" that had crept into Peter Schmeichel's game. And following United 3-2 home defeat to Middlesbrough, the Observer's Paul Wilson remarked that "Giggs's touch was poor … and Beckham … put in one of his least substantial performances".

In the midst of the 24-hour news cycle even the most insignificant of facts is stuck under a microscope. But with distance the squabbles and the grind are forgotten: we remember only the most vivid notes. The stunning comebacks against Juventus and Arsenal. Giggs's wonder goal. The feeling that Keane would blast through anything in his way.

Such a reappraisal could yet happen to this United team. Critics will point out that they rarely play well for 90 minutes and are often lucky. And that, between now and May, they will have been found out.

That may well be the case. But, given their record so far, their remarkable tenacity and their knack of winning matches – even when they have been stinking the place out – they surely deserve the benefit of the doubt over the next three months while we find out just how good they are.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/feb/17/manchester-united-sir-alex-ferguson

 

[nelto]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

and we've taken four points off them!

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

I just think they are stable, whilst City, us, Chelsea and Arsenal have or are all undergoing big change. For us its quite rapid evolution under a new manager, while the other three are going through some sort of crisis/decline.

I genuinly believe that we can give them a run for their money next season (providing we make two, and only two, big signings in the summer + keep hold of Bale and get Kaboul and Sandro back early).

 

[clevelandspur]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

I just think they are stable, whilst City, us, Chelsea and Arsenal have or are all undergoing big change. For us its quite rapid evolution under a new manager, while the other three are going through some sort of crisis/decline.

I genuinly believe that we can give them a run for their money next season (providing we make two, and only two, big signings in the summer + keep hold of Bale and get Kaboul and Sandro back early).

which two signings out of curiosity? guessing a striker and creative CM?

 

[braineclipse]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

I don't think they are much better player for player.

Their team functions brilliantly as a unit though, they play well in almost any phase of play and in almost any game situation that comes up. City, Chelsea, ourselves and Arsenal are not as versatile in that respect. They have a lot of options in their squad, options that can change their approach if need be. I also think they are less reliant on individuals. Yes, van Persie scores a lot of their goals, but he's their main striker (furthest forward) and they are the best team in the league, of course he will score a lot of goals.

Some examples:

-United have to sit back and defend, no problems. They can do that very well. If City have to do that they seem to struggle to soak up pressure against big sides. Would they have gotten away with a point from Bernabeu?

-United have to get a goal against a team that parks the bus, no problem. They can do that very well. If we have to do that we struggle much more, we don't create as many big chances, we don't get as many players into the box etc.

United have to deal with a tall, strong, long ball team, no problem. They have players who can match up to that and take the fight Arsenal have to do the same and they look fragile.

The rest of the top teams, ourselves included, kind of rely on getting games on track, getting games into situations that suit us. United can deal with almost anything.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

which two signings out of curiosity? guessing a striker and creative CM?

Yeah. Though specifically a ballplaying CM, rather than an ACM.

A quicker, more mobile upgrade on Hudd. And a bigger, more complete and more clinical upgrade on Defoe.

Basically (versions of) the two big players we missed out on on the last day of the last two windows - Moutinho and Leandro.

 

[Fuego]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

But is this season's Premier League, say, really any less competitive than in 2010-11 when an average United team ground and pounded their way to the title? This time round they are romping away with it. They surely deserve a lot more credit.

+

Robin van Persie

They've just had a season of disappointment and are reacting like Barca reacted. They added RVP to their squad and most of the other players are the same. They've weakened in a couple of areas... For every Carrick that players better, there is a Vidic that plays worse (or at least, less).


They put in a defensive performance against Real Madrid and got a draw.

Chelsea put in 3 defensive performances in the CL last season and won the thing, it didn't stop them from being brick.

United are playing decently and have decent players, but if they go toe to toe with any of Europe's best 4, they will get destroyed, so they have to put in tactical defensive performances. However, that alone means they are a long way from Real Madrid, Bayern, Barca and probably Dortmund in quality. They have no claim to being the best team in Europe at the moment.

The PL is different, but we've lost King, VDV and Modric... Had Kaboul missing for most of the season, are going to have to get through the 2nd half of the season without Sandro and we're only a few points from 2nd at the moment. Oh and our striker can't score goals at the moment.

United will lose in the 2nd leg against Real Madrid but win the PL easily.

But is this season's Premier League, say, really any less competitive than in 2010-11 when an average United team ground and pounded their way to the title?

It's less competitive than last year, where this Man United side without RVP came 2nd.

City have weakened and aren't as motivated.

Chelsea have strengthened on their team that came 6th.

I've covered us.

Arsenal sold United RVP. (And sold Song to Barca.)


You can build this team:

Real Madrid 2nd choice GK.

Barca 2nd choice RB

Real Madrid 3rd choice CB

Barca 3rd choice CB

Real Madrid 2nd choice LB

Song

Modric

Fabregas

Callejon

Higuain

David Villa


That's a 2nd choice team based on Barca and Madrid's benches. That'd tinkle this league.

Now for that team's bench:

Tello, Kaka, Pinto, Montoya (assuming Adriano is in this team), Tiago, Essien, Albiol, Cuenca, Sanchez.


I've probably forgotten people, but just off the top of my head that is the team and bench of the Real Madrid and Barca reserve teams. The weakest link is probably Lopez, who played in goal vs United and Barca recently. Pinto is the GK on the bench if that'd be better. Pepe and Mascherano would both walk into that Man United team. Marcelo would probably have got in judging by how badly Evra was playing earlier in the season. The midfield trashes arguably all PL midfields, it certainly trashes United's. The front 3 are extremely strong too.

But just look at the bench. There's a Spanish international defender on there, technically 2. The wingers on the bench are better than United's first choice wingers.

Is there anyone here that truly believes the Barca and Madrid reserves aren't better than the current United team? (You don't have to use my team, you can arrange them however you want.)

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

I just think they are stable, whilst City, us, Chelsea and Arsenal have or are all undergoing big change. For us its quite rapid evolution under a new manager, while the other three are going through some sort of crisis/decline.

I genuinly believe that we can give them a run for their money next season (providing we make two, and only two, big signings in the summer + keep hold of Bale and get Kaboul and Sandro back early).

Agree entirely. This is the main reason they've raced so far ahead of everyone else. City have struggled with the 'champions' tag as teams have now figured them out and pack the box in force, which they (with their lack of natural wingers) cannot effectively counter. Chelsea have lurched from one crisis to another. And Arsenal have been consistently bad all season, by their own high standards at least. We had a slow, rocky start, and still don't look fully used to AVB's system of effective possession, even if we're now looking much, much better than we did at the same stage last season.

United, by contrast, reinforced themselves by signing the league's best striker and slotted him neatly into their system, honed over the course of two-plus decades by one of the best managers this country has ever seen. In retrospect, they were always going to run away with it. Which just goes to show how magnificent our performances against them have been. Four points from two games with this United side is no mean feat, especially considering how dominant we were even in the game we drew.

As for the second bit, I'm starting to believe as well. Though I still believe we need three signings, not two. Sure, it's an ask considering our frugal transfer spending, but there's no reason to think we can't achieve these three signings without blasting our squad harmony and transfer/wage budgets out of the water; A young, exciting winger as an understudy to Bale and as cover/competition on the flanks, an older, experienced, combative yet technically proficient central midfielder as cover/competition for Dembele and a good, strong, preferably young striker who is both content to start from the bench initially, and is ready to make an impact when he does come on.

The first is necessary as preparation for when Bale moves on ,and because of our lack of competition on the flanks.

The second is necessary because of Hudd's inability to cover effectively for Dembele, and because Carroll's not quite ready to do so yet. Plus we've seen the winning mentality and experience Gallas has brought to our back-line, so there's no reason to think an experienced, title/cup-winning midfielder won't do the same for Sandro, Dembele and the rest. And an older player won't be as unhappy with not playing as a younger one would.

The third is necessary because..well, it's obvious. He has to be young, though, because I don't think we'll shift Ade, and I don't think we'll sell Defoe, so bringing in another 'first-team' striker would be contrary to AVB's ideas on squad harmony ( I remember him criticizing Pav's situation last season).

Think Andre Schurrle, Anatoliy Tymoschuk and Matej Vydra as examples of the three above.

-------------------Lloris-------------------

Walker------Kaboul--------Verts-------BAE

------------Sandro--------Dembele--------

Lennon-------------Holtby-------------Bale

---------------------Ade/Defoe-----------

Subs; Friedel, Caulker, Naughton, Parker, Sigurdsson, Schurrle, Vydra.

Subs not used; Dempsey, Daws, Tymoschuk, Miles, Gallas, Townsend.

That's as close to a title-winning squad as we'll get, realistically, and is talented enough to allow us to start dreaming.

edit; all dependent on securing CL football, though. Please don't let it slip away, lads.

 

[Eriktheviking]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

I think Utd are one of the few top teams who can easily play against long ball larry teams. Stoke, west ham, fulham et al never seen to give Utd much of a problem.

The league is won and lost against teams outside the top 6. Utd seem to realise this.

 

[Hootnow]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

Utd are an exceptional team and its the same things said about them every season. This is the end, this is their worst team in the past x years, next season is the year we're going to overtake them. The same things about us overtaking them, them not having a good team etc were being said in 2004.

They're not only running away with the league, they've also racked up one of the highest ever points total at this stage of the season.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

Utd are an exceptional team and its the same things said about them every season. This is the end, this is their worst team in the past x years, next season is the year we're going to overtake them. The same things about us overtaking them, them not having a good team etc were being said in 2004.

They're not only running away with the league, they've also racked up one of the highest ever points total at this stage of the season.

No one said anything about overtaking them. Competing with them, however....now that might be a possibility. Provided we make the right moves this summer, and achieve our objectives this season.

For what it's worth, 'overtaking' them means becoming both more successful than them and garnering more revenue and worldwide fans than them. Both United and us started from relatively equal positions when Ferguson took over all those years ago, but he propelled them into an age of utter domination while we stagnated. And undoing that will take far, far longer than he did to get United up there.

'Overtaking' them is impossible, at least within the constraints of modern football's short timescales (i.e, a year, five years, a decade at the most). Perhaps in thirty or forty years, we can look back and say 'yes, we've overtaken them.' Now? Ludicrous to think that.

Our short term and medium-term aim should be returning to the historic 'top four' of England's trophy-winning clubs, with United/Liverpool duelling it out for first and second, Arsenal sitting ensconced in third and us clawing our way up from fourth. At the moment, we're sixth or seventh, which is at odds with our traditional position in that table.

 

[clevelandspur]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

Utd are an exceptional team and its the same things said about them every season. This is the end, this is their worst team in the past x years, next season is the year we're going to overtake them. The same things about us overtaking them, them not having a good team etc were being said in 2004.

They're not only running away with the league, they've also racked up one of the highest ever points total at this stage of the season.

It really is incredible and they rebuild on the fly and hardly skip a beat. Look at all the younger players they have this year making a significant impact: Jones, Cleverley, Welbeck, Rafael, De Gea, Kagawa, Smalling Hernandez, Buttner (all under 25)

 

[Baleforce]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

i think they are magnificent, they are definitely not getting the recognition they deserve, not as flash and fancy as previous united sides but hugely effective

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

To expand on the point a little further, it's startling how far ahead United have raced in the roughly two and a half decades since Gascoigne turned them down to sign for us. We really did fudge up in the most horrific manner throughout the nineties, and well into the 2000's. Jesus.

 

[Hootnow]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

No one said anything about overtaking them. Competing with them, however....now that might be a possibility. Provided we make the right moves this summer, and achieve our objectives this season.

For what it's worth, 'overtaking' them means becoming both more successful than them and garnering more revenue and worldwide fans than them. Both United and us started from relatively equal positions when Ferguson took over all those years ago, but he propelled them into an age of utter domination while we stagnated. And undoing that will take far, far longer than he did to get United up there.

'Overtaking' them is impossible, at least within the constraints of modern football's short timescales (i.e, a year, five years, a decade at the most). Perhaps in thirty or forty years, we can look back and say 'yes, we've overtaken them.' Now? Ludicrous to think that.

Our short term and medium-term aim should be returning to the historic 'top four' of England's trophy-winning clubs, with United/Liverpool duelling it out for first and second, Arsenal sitting ensconced in third and us clawing our way up from fourth. At the moment, we're sixth or seventh, which is at odds with our traditional position in that table.

Competing with them means regularly challenging for the title. I don't see much evidence that we're really ready for that tbh.

As I said, I remember the exact same thing multiple times, especially in 2004. How they were on the final decline, ageing team, Ferguson going senile blah blah. Sack Ferguson, sell Giggs, all this kind of brick.

4 league titles, 3 league cups and 1 champions league later, here we are, with them 12 points clear at the top of their nearest rival.

Of course its good to have ambition to challenge for the top but we have to be realistic.

 

[Hootnow]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

It really is incredible and they rebuild on the fly and hardly skip a beat. Look at all the younger players they have this year making a significant impact: Jones, Cleverley, Welbeck, Rafael, De Gea, Kagawa, Smalling Hernandez, Buttner (all under 25)

Exactly. That is one of Ferguson's biggest strengths tbh, how many different Man utd squads has he built now? And this one looks just as strong as any of the others.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

Competing with them means regularly challenging for the title. I don't see much evidence that we're really ready for that tbh.

As I said, I remember the exact same thing multiple times, especially in 2004. How they were on the final decline, ageing team, Ferguson going senile blah blah. Sack Ferguson, sell Giggs, all this kind of brick.

4 league titles, 3 league cups and 1 champions league later, here we are, with them 12 points clear at the top of their nearest rival.

Of course its good to have ambition to challenge for the top but we have to be realistic.

We pulled four points off them this season. We've shown we can directly, and convincingly beat them, for the first time in.....well, my entire time following the club. We have the nucleus of a great side. And we have a young, trophy-winning, ambitious manager.

Assuming everything falls into place this season (and admittedly that's a huge assumption), and assuming we make the right moves in the transfer market, is it really that hard to fathom? After all, the United of this season will not always be the United that turns up. Last season, they suffered a collapse almost every bit as devastating as ours. So they're as fragile as we are. In respect to their squad, they possess holes that are as obvious as ours are. They have a managerial advantage, but then that's true when they're compared to nearly every club in world football. And additionally, said manager has to retire soon, irrespective of his past dalliances with the prospect.

So yes, it's not that far-fetched, or unrealistic. however I fully agree with your assessment on the difficulty of the prospect.

 

[milo]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

Utd are an exceptional team and its the same things said about them every season. This is the end, this is their worst team in the past x years, next season is the year we're going to overtake them. The same things about us overtaking them, them not having a good team etc were being said in 2004.

They're not only running away with the league, they've also racked up one of the highest ever points total at this stage of the season.

I agree. People are talking about the deficiencies of the top four challengers but I think that the overall quality of the Premiership is the best it has been for years. To achieve the points table they have in such an even league is a real achievement.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

It really is incredible and they rebuild on the fly and hardly skip a beat. Look at all the younger players they have this year making a significant impact: Jones, Cleverley, Welbeck, Rafael, De Gea, Kagawa, Smalling Hernandez, Buttner (all under 25)

And they've never fallen out of the top 3 since early 90s I believe. Staggering when you consider they are the only club to have done that.

I don't think they're anywhere near as good as they used to be, but they have a world class striker who's probably the best striker they've had since Cantona, a team full of winners with a never say die attitude even if they aren't that great technically and last but not least, the greatest manager of all time who wants blood after last season.

 

[onlyme]

Re: O/T - Manchester Utd are running away with the title. Are they better than we thi

Glad we now have a Manchester United thread but it is mis-titled. It should be "Are we better then we think?"