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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Raziel said:
No offense, that article is the kind of absolute drivel that is written by fans with very little appreciation of running a business with revenue and values in the billions of dollars, lets just look at a couple of statements

- Sacrificing this season if needed? fiscally irresponsable and against stakeholder interest. What arbitrary value are we willing to sacrifice? 20M/40M/100M in revenue? what PR loss (no CL), do we except?
- What clear result can sticking guarantee? (answer is nothing)
- How long do we stick for without result, 1 month? 3 months? 6 months? (complete flaw of the sticking idea, it will never be a commitment, it will be constant questioning everytime a result goes wrong)
- The club has no obligation to wait on Poch to sort out his head, identity, tactics, motivation, honestly if he isn't very close to solving that already, he isn't going to get any extra time.
- too obvious a choice? obvious choices are usually that because it makes sense (proven before)

The only thing I agree with is fudge the rotation for now, until winning becomes a habit again, try your best to win every game.

The argument for change is managers have a cycle, it is proven that in most cases change for change sake creates some upside, and very few managers ever get out of the downwards spiral once it starts
The argument for sticking seems to be, hey we like Poch, he did a job over a year ago and it seems like the nice/right thing to do.

People forget, Poch is being paid (8M/yr? IIRC) to deliver, he's not .. this isn't a charity or friendship or even if I like him thing ...
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Either way is gamble, man utd and arsenal are replacing long term managers because they need a "refresh", not working out that great there.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I thought it was a pretty reasonable summation of the situation, figured it might be of interest.

Certainly not saying I'm 400% on board with with it...
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Nothing at you mate, just the flippancy of some of the statements and to me it highlights the current fan view

- Some people have seen the writing on the wall, a pattern that is very well known by now with only one inevitable result.
- Others make hopeful, completely unrealistic (refresh entire squad) arguments that boil down to we like (or worse, owe) Poch something.

Honestly the question is really timing, now or later and what are the real risks with that?
 
Raziel said:
Because neither of those have Levy running the club, they had a manager who was both team and club manager, and both of those had vastly deteriorating squads.

Do you believe Spurs needs anything more that 2 or 3 players at most?
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Two or three on top of the three or four that want out and the major injury concern in wanyama?
If you think we only need two or three players and new manager then he better be a bloody good manager or a miracle worker.

Look I understand people who think he's done here, but don't kid ourselves that a new manager is going to come in and everything will be rosie. It keeps getting said that managers in pochs position doesn't end well, well there plenty if not more evidence that a kneejeek response to replace that manager ends worse.
 
Raziel said:
Because neither of those have Levy running the club, they had a manager who was both team and club manager, and both of those had vastly deteriorating squads.

Do you believe Spurs needs anything more that 2 or 3 players at most?
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I believe we need 6 or 7.

We need 3 before anyone else comes in or leaves - an RB, an LB and a DM. Then we need to replace Toby, Jan, and Eriksen.

Then a range of other factors may bump up the numbers even more.
 
glasgowspur said:
Two or three on top of the three or four that want out and the major injury concern in wanyama?
If you think we only need two or three players and new manager then he better be a bloody good manager or a miracle worker.

Look I understand people who think he's done here, but don't kid ourselves that a new manager is going to come in and everything will be rosie. It keeps getting said that managers in pochs position doesn't end well, well there plenty if not more evidence that a kneejeek response to replace that manager ends worse.
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You raise some fair points - as does @Raziel to be fair.

I guess it depends on if behind the scenes the board feel Poch is underachieving given what he has and what he has been offered. If that's the case then he is toast regardless of what we think as they will also believe another coach might get better results out of the current set-up and also the resources (aka money) that has been made available.

If, however, they feel Poch has done miracles given the constraints (which only they would really know for sure) then will just hope that he is able to turn things around as they'll also know it's unlikely another coach who operates at the levels we aspire will accept the conditions Poch has had.
 
DubaiSpur said:
I believe we need 6 or 7.

We need 3 before anyone else comes in or leaves - an RB, an LB and a DM. Then we need to replace Toby, Jan, and Eriksen.

Then a range of other factors may bump up the numbers even more.
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glorygloryeze said:
You raise some fair points - as does @Raziel to be fair.

I guess it depends on if behind the scenes the board feel Poch is underachieving given what he has and what he has been offered. If that's the case then he is toast regardless of what we think as they will also believe another coach might get better results out of the current set-up and also the resources (aka money) that has been made available.

If, however, they feel Poch has done miracles given the constraints (which only they would really know for sure) then will just hope that he is able to turn things around as they'll also know it's unlikely another coach who operates at the levels we aspire will accept the conditions Poch has had.
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I can see how anyone doesn't believe he is underachieving (at least the front line is)

My point to @glasgowspur would be, out of the two or three want outs, would one or two stay if the right next manager came in?

Re @DubaiSpur LB & DM would depend on the style we want to play, agree on RB

I don't believe we need 3+ players to make top 4, I believe we need to get back to the basics, win against the bottom 12 or so sides, get some re-enforcement in January and ensure CL for next year with summer to re-evaluate.
 
I think that the diamond requires too much thinking from the players. From what I can see, Poch wants the players to be flexible and capable of offering quality in multiple positions. At left back for example we can see Rose alternating between playing on the left of a back three when Son drops and Aurier advances, as a CM alongside Winks when the midfield is vacated by N'Dombele and Sissoko and as a wing back when Son has tucked in.

I believe that all these changes require a certain level of intelligence from the team and if one person is not where they are meant to be it all goes to brick. Take our press for example; too many times we are seeing half of our guys stepping up whilst the other half sit. I've seen multiple occasions where the forward three have doubled up as if they don't know who they are meant to be pressing, leaving our CM's and full backs exposed. We know that the three in midfield are struggling to shuttle from side to side at the moment too.
 
glorygloryeze said:
You raise some fair points - as does @Raziel to be fair.

I guess it depends on if behind the scenes the board feel Poch is underachieving given what he has and what he has been offered. If that's the case then he is toast regardless of what we think as they will also believe another coach might get better results out of the current set-up and also the resources (aka money) that has been made available.

If, however, they feel Poch has done miracles given the constraints (which only they would really know for sure) then will just hope that he is able to turn things around as they'll also know it's unlikely another coach who operates at the levels we aspire will accept the conditions Poch has had.
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Exactly, we don't know anything and until I have enough information to make an informed judgement I will support the manager.
It's being stated that it's obvious what's happening, how it will pan out and what will sort it.
Well it's not to me and unless someone in here is privy to info I'm not then it's nothing but speculation.
 
Cochise said:
I think that the diamond requires too much thinking from the players. From what I can see, Poch wants the players to be flexible and capable of offering quality in multiple positions. At left back for example we can see Rose alternating between playing on the left of a back three when Son drops and Aurier advances, as a CM alongside Winks when the midfield is vacated by N'Dombele and Sissoko and as a wing back when Son has tucked in.

I believe that all these changes require a certain level of intelligence from the team and if one person is not where they are meant to be it all goes to brick. Take our press for example; too many times we are seeing half of our guys stepping up whilst the other half sit. I've seen multiple occasions where the forward three have doubled up as if they don't know who they are meant to be pressing, leaving our CM's and full backs exposed. We know that the three in midfield are struggling to shuttle from side to side at the moment too.
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IMO we did all that, the last few years. We have been an incredibly versatile team in Pochs time.

What you described is a team playing a system, but as if they don't even work on it in training.

That's what I can't fathom. How can we possibly be so bad at it?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
IMO we did all that, the last few years. We have been an incredibly versatile team in Pochs time.

What you described is a team playing a system, but as if they don't even work on it in training.

That's what I can't fathom. How can we possibly be so bad at it?
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Because we’re playing CMs on un natural positions

Their natural type is to come central
 
Raziel said:
I can see how anyone doesn't believe he is underachieving (at least the front line is)

My point to @glasgowspur would be, out of the two or three want outs, would one or two stay if the right next manager came in?

Re @DubaiSpur LB & DM would depend on the style we want to play, agree on RB

I don't believe we need 3+ players to make top 4, I believe we need to get back to the basics, win against the bottom 12 or so sides, get some re-enforcement in January and ensure CL for next year with summer to re-evaluate.
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Eriksen has said almost from day one that he has a career path and he will follow it, end of.
Toby is done, not worth keeping. Also stabbed the club and Loch in particular in the back. Goodbye.
Rose wants out, is unhappy here with everything, not just poch.
Wanyama is done. Really sad to say that, I love the big man and I put his decline as the start of our problems. We've never filled that role. Goodbye.
Sissoko needs upgrading.
Lamela too injury prone.
That's before we think about Hugo, his elbow or howlers.

I totally agree with bank to basics, wins against the bottom feeders, etc.
But I also support the current manager, if he wants to.
If he can look DL and Harry in the eye and trust me I can and will turn this around then that's good enough for me.

I hope I've answered that in a reasonable way, here's a point I'd like thoughts on.
You say get us into top 4, the only thinh top 4 about spurs is the stadium and the finishing position.
We don't spend top 4 money
We don't pay top 4 wages
We have no recent history of winning or high league finishing.
Name me another top 4 team that bought no players for 18 months.

How far back in this thread do you this k we would need to go before we found posts saying poch had us over achieving?
Not very I would bet.
With all the things I've listed above did no one ever think this may come back to bits us in the arse?
 
braineclipse said:
Which players though?

And how do we replace them? Do we have the money to replace them quickly or are we looking at a couple of years of player development to get back to our best?

Pochettino has a squad most PL managers would love to have. He has gotten us mid table results over the last half a season with that squad. How much longer would you accept from Pochettino?
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Tried to answer your post paragraph by paragraph.

I would suggest the it's the players not signing new contracts (Toby Jan Eriksen) plus Wanyama and Rose - the more senior players from the last group essentially.

I would look at last summer as a starting point as to where we are in the market and the level of player we can attract and are targeting.

Alderweireld = Sanchez
Jan = ???
Rose = Sessegnon
Wanyama = Ndombele
Dembele = Lo Celso
Eriksen = Fernandez (supposedly was lined and agreed but Eriksen didn't leave)

On paper those ins/outs look good to me and show the club and presumably Pochettino is targetting the right type of players to replace the old guard, add to those the likes of Son Kane and Alli and the new team is starting to take shape and is looking good. Similar level of improvement at RB and CB then Pochs 2.0 will be stepping out at the beginning of next season potentially...

On paper yes he has a great side that many would envy but the game isn't played on paper and we clearly have a jaded set of players that are playing below their level as a collective. I expect once Lo Celso and Sess are brought in to the fold the new blood, along with Ndombele, will bring about a bit of a revival in energy.

Im entirely prepared to give him the next two windows to see through the churn of playing staff, provided of course the club and he are on the same wave length and we expect to be able to bring in the level of players we saw come in this summer.
 
StephenH said:
Not the same type of player
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I think we'll see him used as an attacking full back, probably seeing Davies promoted to first choice initially.

We seemed prepared to let Rose leave in the summer and with no real links to other LBs it's the only conclusion to make imo
 
Th
billyiddo said:
I think we'll see him used as an attacking full back, probably seeing Davies promoted to first choice initially.

We seemed prepared to let Rose leave in the summer and with no real links to other LBs it's the only conclusion to make imo
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More a Bale/Son imho
Was a strange buy with the problems we have!
 
glorygloryeze said:
@billyiddo i'm interested in your stance re Poch because there seems some inconsistency:

a) you say you worry that if Poch goes, he;ll go to United and get them motoring upwards and past us due to the resources he will have, backing etc

b) however, you state the backing he has (or has not) received cannot be an excuse for having not won a trophy in his tenure with us.

If you don't think Poch has an excuse for not utilising what he has here with us to win a trophy, then why on you worry about him joining United (or other top 6 rival) and motor past us?

You either think he HAS been backed and failed with us (in terms of not winning a trophy) or you think he'd do very well with, erm, more backing..

So which is it?
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I don't think one statement contradicts the other tbh

The level of backing any manager at United would get would far outweigh what we can offer so it stands to reason what a manager can build here he can build there too, only with more money to buy the players he wants in the market so therefore more likely to have a bigger better side as a result.

I think the the team he has built here and has had managed the last 4 years has been good enough to challenge for and win trophies and that no one can say he was hampered by the board.
 
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