Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[glasgowspur]

I'm not sure there's anyone you would class as bad apples in the squad. Eriksen is a bit autistic and Rose a bit feisty. But I don't think either actively try to be disruptive.

I wasn't first to use the phrase, I'm just repeating it.

 

[SylDave]

Really depends how much of a rebuild you think we need.

All players being fit, we could be fielding this side now:

..................lloris
kwp......sanchez....davies...sessegnon
..........ndombele...winks
.....................alli
....moura....................son
...................kane


lo celso, sissoko, skipp, lamela, dier, foyth, parrot all on the sidelines.

Not including vertonghen, rose, aurier, eriksen and alderweireld who are on the "outs".

Personally I would include Vertonghen in the team, but thats because I really think he should stick around.

If not, if he goes too - the immediate concerns are clearly RB and LCB IMO.

Thats no more than a decent January window.

Then of course its all about bringing in quality as and when you can and looking at succession of senior players.

I think this whole notion of "major rebuild" is somewhat over stated.

Totally agree with all of that especially Vertonghen that’s a problem of our making not the players, but I would also add in a holding midfielder to at the very least compete with Dier, I have said it numerous times nobody is putting a gun to Poch’s head to play the other three.

Plus ask two questions, firstly why would the whole or majority of the squad all at once down tools and refuse to play for the club? What reasons would cause that in some form or another that have not leaked out, then that realistically leaves option two that they are not playing for the manager being a much more realistic reason.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I wasn't first to use the phrase, I'm just repeating it.

I think the bad apple idea has taken on a life of its own to be honest (not pointing fingers at you!)

The original notion was, as I saw it (on here and in general) was that having Eriksen, Alderweireld, Rose etc in and around the squad might be bad for the squad harmony as they actively want to leave. Either their attitude might be poor, their work ethic, or just the idea that they wont be around long causing instability... Which I can understand, players need to feel secure and "together" to function in good faith with the team.

My response to that is and always has been - remove the players that are causing that issue (if they are). There is no need to play them. No need to wait.

The bad apple thing now seems to be taking on another dynamic, where Im repeatedly seeing the argument that if the players have "gone bad" then THEY are the problem and need changing, not the manager.

It presupposes "thats it, players are bad, a permanent state". And no amount of change in management will effect that. Which lets be honest, is nonsense.

Its like saying a guy has a relationship go sour with a girl, they eventually split up as it gets nasty - now he can never have a meaningful relationship again because he will always be that same antagonist...

Rubbish. Sometimes relationships run their course, its life. And then you move on to a new relationship that can be the best you ever had (happened to me!).

It is entirely possible (if not, likely) that if we changed manager there would be a positive response from the squad. New energy, new ideas, a new voice - a fresh start - it can be an invigorating experience (if that manager is a good one!).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Totally agree with all of that especially Vertonghen that’s a problem of our making not the players, but I would also add in a holding midfielder to at the very least compete with Dier, I have said it numerous times nobody is putting a gun to Poch’s head to play the other three.

Plus ask two questions, firstly why would the whole or majority of the squad all at once down tools and refuse to play for the club? What reasons would cause that in some form or another that have not leaked out, then that realistically leaves option two that they are not playing for the manager being a much more realistic reason.

My example was far from definitive, everyone has their ideas on what would improve things - but I do think it is representative of the fact the idea we need 4-6 windows to completely rebuild the squad is something of an overstatement.

We wont know about the whys of things, unless it eventually comes out in the wash - which if it ever does will likely be years away in someones autobiography.

Until then we can only speculate.

Right now it appears to me we have been struggling and grinding so long, and Poch has been less than his usual best, things have just mounted up to a breaking point. Its a number of things layered up on each other.

What we will see now is whether or not its the typical breaking point where the manager pays the price, or if Poch can use it as an opportunity for a clean slate and get things going again.

 

[braineclipse]

I think Poch has a brief reprieve. If he was going to go, he would have by now.

The players are not back until Wednesday next week (I would imagine), which means he'll have three days with them to start getting things back to where they should be.

Perhaps going away with their national sides, experiencing a different group dynamic, manager, training etc will have helped. A change being as good as a rest...

Then we have Watford (19thOct), who are currently terrible, Red Star Belgrade(22nd) and then Liverpool away (27th).

I think, as it stands, Liverpool is the key game.

We should beat Watford and RSB, no guarantees of course, but we should. We could take those games and show how we are working on the training ground to bring the team together in a successful way. And then Liverpool will be the test of that.

And I dont even think the Liverpool result is the key thing, its the performance, how well we match up. But I do think - if we pull another Brighton type performance - that Liverpool will absolutely smash us, and Im not sure Poch survives that.

We then have a week off, Sunday to Sunday, and the fixtures following are Everton (A), RSB (A), Sheff Utd (H), West Ham (A), Olympiakos (H), Bournemouth (H) taking us to the end of November.

December is a tricky one, Man U (A), Burnley (H), Bayern (A), Wolves (A), Chelsea (H), Brighton (H - Boxing Day), Norwich (A).

It looks two ways to me, and it all hinges on Liverpool.

1) Poch gets to work, the squad responds, we do well against Watford and RSB, and put in a good showing against Liverpool. The run following that is ideal for building momentum on that good work the three games prior. It could be the making of our season and the resurrection of Poch and the team.

2) Poch gets to work, the squad doesnt respond. We limp past Watford and RSB (or worse) and Liverpool utterly outclass us. Poch goes. New manager has a pretty decent run to come into the club and try to build the team back up with...

Good post and I think I agree with all of that.

The pressure is on. If the poor form continues I don't think Pochettino can realistically get a rebuild job. Might be that Levy thinks differently, but it would surprise me.

A significant concern is how Pochettino has seemed so ambivalent to his role at the club over some time now. I know he said recently that he wanted speculation about his future to continue for five years as that would mean he was still here. Those words ring hollow considering all the stuff he's said about his future and his role.

Can Levy write off this season and give the rebuild job to Pochettino whilst being unsure if he will just leave to Real or PSG at any point if he gets the chance at the right moment?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Can Levy write off this season and give the rebuild job to Pochettino whilst being unsure if he will just leave to Real or PSG at any point if he gets the chance at the right moment?

Short answer, for me - no.

Though I trust Levy to know more, and know better!

 

[glasgowspur]

I think the bad apple idea has taken on a life of its own to be honest (not pointing fingers at you!)

The original notion was, as I saw it (on here and in general) was that having Eriksen, Alderweireld, Rose etc in and around the squad might be bad for the squad harmony as they actively want to leave. Either their attitude might be poor, their work ethic, or just the idea that they wont be around long causing instability... Which I can understand, players need to feel secure and "together" to function in good faith with the team.

My response to that is and always has been - remove the players that are causing that issue (if they are). There is no need to play them. No need to wait.

The bad apple thing now seems to be taking on another dynamic, where Im repeatedly seeing the argument that if the players have "gone bad" then THEY are the problem and need changing, not the manager.

It presupposes "thats it, players are bad, a permanent state". And no amount of change in management will effect that. Which lets be honest, is nonsense.

Its like saying a guy has a relationship go sour with a girl, they eventually split up as it gets nasty - now he can never have a meaningful relationship again because he will always be that same antagonist...

Rubbish. Sometimes relationships run their course, its life. And then you move on to a new relationship that can be the best you ever had (happened to me!).

It is entirely possible (if not, likely) that if we changed manager there would be a positive response from the squad. New energy, new ideas, a new voice - a fresh start - it can be an invigorating experience (if that manager is a good one!).

I agree, but my posted you have quoted was a reply to another post and was in a context not obvious in your post.

Not that I think have taken my post and twisted it or anything. It's getting very tricky to follow all this at times.

I don't think there's bad apples, I think we have multiple small problems that were being managed and we had a plan and timetable to rectify them.
Unfortunately the problems have grown, or been worse than we thought, become unmanageable and the evolutionary timetable is looking more unlikely.

This is still fixable, the big question is who wants it?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Oh absolutely, more just picking up on the "bad apple" in your post and raising my thoughts in a wider context, certainly not intended as a direct reply.

 

[glorygloryeze]

The "busted flush" list is starting to resemble the "old guard" who most certainly hold more clout in the dressing room than others. Think about it; we built our system of play through Eriksen. Aurier, although newer to the group, was a total gamble from the start given his overall rep, and it appears he hasn't changed. Alderweireld -who I have quietly complained about for a year and a half- is a powerful presence who fudged us about two seasons ago. As for Dier, it pains me to number him because I genuinely wanted him to be our skipper for a long time, but he is simply not the player he was. Davies is just average, and we need better than that. Dele is on a knife's edge; he can go on to be an incredible world class talent but he has to want it.

Now, think about the influence those players have held/hold in the dressing room. It is no coincidence to me that Poch has not thrown Skipp in there right now; he is protecting him. Ditto Parrott. Why (IMO)? Because the seniors in that list are not up to marshaling them through. Jan, Kane and to an extent Lloris are the only seniors I fully trust, and I perversely believe that Rose would too as he has given everything for us whenever he has played this season.

The problem is that they are ALL playing like 'busted flushes' Steff. It's one thing gto lose the way we do vs Bayern, it's TOTALLY another thing to lose and GET TOTALLY OUTPLAYED BY BRIGTON!
It's not something that has happened overnight, either. In 2019, look at our league form?
It's not like he has just got into the job in the last 18 months, it is absolutely HIS squad now.
One or two players who are "not committed" or who "want to leave" should not equal the downturn of results and especially that performance on Saturday, which was bad enough in isolation, let alone the fact that any decent side we have faced in the PL this year has almost always beaten us.
Funny how those seniors are not up to marshalling the youngsters through now, yet they were who we relying on only a few months ago to get us to the CL final.
The time for high-brow excuses has to stop now, sadly

 

[elltrev]

I was thinking about this - at what point is it the manager who is the bad apple and not the players?

I’m not seeing much from anyone from the playing staff atm to suggest many want to turn it around.

Are we suggesting all the players need binning till the manager gets players that are willing to work to his current maximum effort zero reward method.

He needs to adapt as a manager or potentially end up like Bielsa in the championship.

Arguably he's been trying to adapt by switching to a diamond and a more possession-based game, but that's one of the main things that he's getting criticism for.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Well, he didn't buy Shagger Chadli, or Eriksen, or Lamela. Janssen was an "option", Nkoudou was "an option" and remember, Mane was wanted, we wouldn't pay reportedly, and we ended with NJie who was considered "an option"...Aurier? "An option." This is why Poch spoke of "being brave" and only getting top level or no level; I suspect even he didn't quite expect it to mean no-one for 18 months!

I think we should've get Lo Celso in EARLY! Like NDombele. We need to listen to what he's asked for and what he wants.

So you're changing your tune and actually believe he WASN'T backed then, despite all your posts on this issue before?
Bending the "theory" to fit it to support Poch? Fair enough, and understandable.

If Poch can take credit for the op 4 finishes, he can then take the blame for our ABYSMAL form in 2019, which shows no sign of improving even just looking at the stats..

 

[braineclipse]

I think the table someone on here posted showing how many players each top club has from 3,4,5 etc years ago shows quite well where some of the issues lay and why it's the players some want to see replaced ahead of the manager

Which players though?

And how do we replace them? Do we have the money to replace them quickly or are we looking at a couple of years of player development to get back to our best?

Pochettino has a squad most PL managers would love to have. He has gotten us mid table results over the last half a season with that squad. How much longer would you accept from Pochettino?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think Poch has a brief reprieve. If he was going to go, he would have by now.

The players are not back until Wednesday next week (I would imagine), which means he'll have three days with them to start getting things back to where they should be.

Perhaps going away with their national sides, experiencing a different group dynamic, manager, training etc will have helped. A change being as good as a rest...

Then we have Watford (19thOct), who are currently terrible, Red Star Belgrade(22nd) and then Liverpool away (27th).

I think, as it stands, Liverpool is the key game.

We should beat Watford and RSB, no guarantees of course, but we should. We could take those games and show how we are working on the training ground to bring the team together in a successful way. And then Liverpool will be the test of that.

And I dont even think the Liverpool result is the key thing, its the performance, how well we match up. But I do think - if we pull another Brighton type performance - that Liverpool will absolutely smash us, and Im not sure Poch survives that.

We then have a week off, Sunday to Sunday, and the fixtures following are Everton (A), RSB (A), Sheff Utd (H), West Ham (A), Olympiakos (H), Bournemouth (H) taking us to the end of November.

December is a tricky one, Man U (A), Burnley (H), Bayern (A), Wolves (A), Chelsea (H), Brighton (H - Boxing Day), Norwich (A).

It looks two ways to me, and it all hinges on Liverpool.

1) Poch gets to work, the squad responds, we do well against Watford and RSB, and put in a good showing against Liverpool. The run following that is ideal for building momentum on that good work the three games prior. It could be the making of our season and the resurrection of Poch and the team.

2) Poch gets to work, the squad doesnt respond. We limp past Watford and RSB (or worse) and Liverpool utterly outclass us. Poch goes. New manager has a pretty decent run to come into the club and try to build the team back up with...

What makes anyone think Poch "has a reprive"?? It's only Monday morning and we are into an international break plus the NFL game etc.

If by England's 2nd Euro qualifier we haven't heard anything then we can say such...way too early to assume nothing will happen just because we haven't heard anything yet...

 

[glorygloryeze]

@billyiddo i'm interested in your stance re Poch because there seems some inconsistency:

a) you say you worry that if Poch goes, he;ll go to United and get them motoring upwards and past us due to the resources he will have, backing etc

b) however, you state the backing he has (or has not) received cannot be an excuse for having not won a trophy in his tenure with us.

If you don't think Poch has an excuse for not utilising what he has here with us to win a trophy, then why on you worry about him joining United (or other top 6 rival) and motor past us?

You either think he HAS been backed and failed with us (in terms of not winning a trophy) or you think he'd do very well with, erm, more backing..

So which is it?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

What makes anyone think Poch "has a reprive"?? It's only Monday morning and we are into an international break plus the NFL game etc.

If by England's 2nd Euro qualifier we haven't heard anything then we can say such...way too early to assume nothing will happen just because we haven't heard anything yet...

Because I think if he were to go, he would have by now.

Levy isn't sentimental, he would want the time to replace Poch and allow that replacement as much time as possible to assess the squad and get his feet under the table etc

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Thing is, I don't think Poch has "lost the dressing room" or anything like that, I just think the players have lost a little bit of motivation and belief.

It's a cliché, but managers have a lifecycle (3-5 years in current game seems about it), and Poch has all the signs of a manager at the end, the surliness, the weird selections/tactics, the stubbornness, the inability to get best of players.

Honestly I think for Poch the choice is simple, walk now and be remembered well, reputation intact and likely well placed for a big job. Stick around and if the results deteriorate further risk reputation and future jobs.

I don’t think he’s made any weird selections and tactics. He’s the same as always, it’s just now he’s taking some pelters for it because results aren’t going our way. The weirdest has been Sanchez at RB, and we haven’t even lost a game with that.

I still maintain there is no point really caring about whether these players feel like a new guy will get more out of them. A big core of this squad will be gone. The build up of changes that need to be made will come to a head this coming summer, and therefore the build up of negative results that come from not having made these changes so far are going to hit us worse this season than in any other.

Move these players out, bring in new players, elevate new leaders, create a new dynamic, with new motivations and reasons for being here. Then we can get on a good path. Right now confidence is in the drain, and nobody is playing like they can, but I think we have to stay the course.

The balancing act has been delicate, no club has really tried to elevate themselves so much, so clearly from one position to another as we have done, all while maintaining success and without outside investment. The closest are Atletico and Dortmund. Atletico moved players out big time this summer and got a new group in. Dortmund only really have one consistent competitor at the top of the League. We are pulling off a unique project.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Because I think if he were to go, he would have by now.

Levy isn't sentimental, he would want the time to replace Poch and allow that replacement as much time as possible to assess the squad and get his feet under the table etc

A few days during an international break would make little difference. However, announcing said change from a PR will be different when there is the other England game noise going on compared to if it's today with all he NFL PR stuff still to squeeze out.
A new manager might be ready to go now anyway, and it wont make much difference if they get to the training ground today vs the weekend, given the number of key players who'll be away anyway.

Nothing to do with sentimentality, but all to do with PR imo and the fact a decision may only have come about after the NFL game (plus who will be available to take the job anyway..)

 

[SylDave]

Because I think if he were to go, he would have by now.

Levy isn't sentimental, he would want the time to replace Poch and allow that replacement as much time as possible to assess the squad and get his feet under the table etc

I agree with the principle of that but I think by tomorrow evening, maybe Wednesday at a absolute push would be the latest where I would say he is then 100% here till Liverpool at a minimum.

I think there would already be unofficial lines of communication going out to potential replacements anyway.

 

[SylDave]

I don’t think he’s made any weird selections and tactics. He’s the same as always, it’s just now he’s taking some pelters for it because results aren’t going our way. The weirdest has been Sanchez at RB, and we haven’t even lost a game with that.

I still maintain there is no point really caring about whether these players feel like a new guy will get more out of them. A big core of this squad will be gone. The build up of changes that need to be made will come to a head this coming summer, and therefore the build up of negative results that come from not having made these changes so far are going to hit us worse this season than in any other.

Move these players out, bring in new players, elevate new leaders, create a new dynamic, with new motivations and reasons for being here. Then we can get on a good path. Right now confidence is in the drain, and nobody is playing like they can, but I think we have to stay the course.

The balancing act has been delicate, no club has really tried to elevate themselves so much, so clearly from one position to another as we have done, all while maintaining success and without outside investment. The closest are Atletico and Dortmund. Atletico moved players out big time this summer and got a new group in. Dortmund only really have one consistent competitor at the top of the League. We are pulling off a unique project.

What would you call the diamond for the last year when it has clearly been costing us, he has stuck by it stubbornly while seeing with his own eyes the issues it has caused, when a bunch of fans who I assume have never worked in professional football saw the team against Bayern and predicted what was to come that tells it’s own story, yet Poch thought that was the correct team to pick.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

I agree with the principle of that but I think by tomorrow evening, maybe Wednesday at a absolute push would be the latest where I would say he is then 400% here till Liverpool at a minimum.

I think there would already be unofficial lines of communication going out to potential replacements anyway.

He's off at a conference in Qatar, due back on Thursday. (Not that he couldn't be sacked in absentia of course, but unlikely).