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Jan Vertonghen

billyiddo said:
Yeah thats fair enough - Wimmer would have to match Vertonghens performance level in order to keep his place in the team (which i was i meant by playing well) which i felt he done last season when he had his run, so if he were to repeat that again this time around then there wouldnt be much of a trade off, in fact developing a young player capable of that level of performance would probably have its own benefits
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Obviously there are benefits to that. But I also think Wimmer is developing well with the game time he it's getting.

The benefits of keeping Vertonghen happy and the Alderweireld-Vertonghen partnership intact are also clear. The benefit of a match-fit, experienced player like Vertonghen in the team as this season nears its conclusion could also be massive.
 
braineclipse said:
But it's not that kind of situation. Rose was 23-24 and Davies 21 iirc. Neither had done enough to warrant being a clear first choice. Vertonghen is a clear first choice for us and Belgium. And at 29 he's at the age where he should be able to expect passing week in week out with his quality.

I'm all for player development. But not if it comes at the cost of not playing someone like Vertonghen.
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It is the same situation of Wimmer performs like he deserves it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying make JV the clear back up, I'm saying that if Wimmer performs well in JV's absence now, just as he did before, we either need to sell him or play him more next season. He won't want to go half a season barely playing again, and nor does he deserve to.
 
galeforce said:
the question is, at the point the decision is made, who's going to offer more value over the next 5 years
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Seriously? So we blow a possible chance of a title hilt and risk a less dependable player, just because Wimmer will be available in 5 year's time and Jan would be close to retirement???!!!!.

Shades of the Rose / Davies debate all over again... it was obvious to anyone with unbiased eyes in his head that Rose was superior to Davies then - as has been clearly proven.

Equally Verts is miles better than Wimmer and he will walk straight into the team when fit again.
 
Maltese Falcon said:
Seriously? So we blow a possible chance of a title hilt and risk a less dependable player, just because Wimmer will be available in 5 year's time and Jan would be close to retirement???!!!!.

Shades of the Rose / Davies debate all over again... it was obvious to anyone with unbiased eyes in his head that Rose was superior to Davies then - as has been clearly proven.

Equally Verts is miles better than Wimmer and he will walk straight into the team when fit again.
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did I say that point is now?

roster decisions should always be made for the long term benefit, that's what has got us to where we are now
 
BrainOfLevy said:
It is the same situation of Wimmer performs like he deserves it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying make JV the clear back up, I'm saying that if Wimmer performs well in JV's absence now, just as he did before, we either need to sell him or play him more next season. He won't want to go half a season barely playing again, and nor does he deserve to.
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He deserves more playing time. But not as much as Vertonghen deserves staying first choice.

If I had to risk updating and losing one of them there's no doubt who I would risk losing.

If Wimmer will leave our not come the summer is largely up to him I guess. Though I think he well have to take a step down if he leaves. He turned 24 in November and it's still fairly young for a centre back. I think being patient with us could be a good decision for him. If he doesn't want that we have Dier, CCV and the option of replacing him in the transfer market with another young player Poch rates.
 
galeforce said:
i also think, that any player not happy with, Poch's philosophy that they are paid to train, and being part of a squad system, isn't someone with the outlook we need
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I think we'd all agree with that. But the other side of the coin is that if Poch operates a meritocracy, and a player proves he is good enough, as Wimmer did last season, then that same player might feel a bit hard done by to be put back to the bench when the incumbent (Verts) regains his place without really having to win it back- unless it's clear that that is what is going to happen. I think that type of disgruntlement, for want of a better word, is very different to someone like say Bentaleb who (allegedly) wasn't quite signed up to the Poch 'you are here first and foremost to train' philosophy.
It's actually a great dilemma for the club and Poch to have but one which needs careful handling. That's where having the experience and maturity to compete on more than one front can pay dividends in keeping some of the key 'second string' players onboard.
 
Glenda's Legs said:
I think we'd all agree with that. But the other side of the coin is that if Poch operates a meritocracy, and a player proves he is good enough, as Wimmer did last season, then that same player might feel a bit hard done by to be put back to the bench when the incumbent (Verts) regains his place without really having to win it back- unless it's clear that that is what is going to happen. I think that type of disgruntlement, for want of a better word, is very different to someone like say Bentaleb who (allegedly) wasn't quite signed up to the Poch 'you are here first and foremost to train' philosophy.
It's actually a great dilemma for the club and Poch to have but one which needs careful handling. That's where having the experience and maturity to compete on more than one front can pay dividends in keeping some of the key 'second string' players onboard.
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Why does only recent performances count in a meritocracy? Both this season and last Vertonghen has been consistently very good for us before his injuries.

For me Vertonghen getting his place back last season was based on merit. Just like Alderweireld getting his place back this season. That's a meritocracy for me.
 
braineclipse said:
Why does only recent performances count in a meritocracy? Both this season and last Vertonghen has been consistently very good for us before his injuries.

For me Vertonghen getting his place back last season was based on merit. Just like Alderweireld getting his place back this season. That's a meritocracy for me.
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I think the situations were quite different, Wimmer was exceptional last season, if they didn't put names on the shirt most people wouldn't have noticed it wasn't Verts

this season we were getting away with it having Dier there instead of Toby, he looked really unsettled at times and our defence had some panicky moments
 
Glenda's Legs said:
I think we'd all agree with that. But the other side of the coin is that if Poch operates a meritocracy, and a player proves he is good enough, as Wimmer did last season, then that same player might feel a bit hard done by to be put back to the bench when the incumbent (Verts) regains his place without really having to win it back- unless it's clear that that is what is going to happen. I think that type of disgruntlement, for want of a better word, is very different to someone like say Bentaleb who (allegedly) wasn't quite signed up to the Poch 'you are here first and foremost to train' philosophy.
It's actually a great dilemma for the club and Poch to have but one which needs careful handling. That's where having the experience and maturity to compete on more than one front can pay dividends in keeping some of the key 'second string' players onboard.
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Well i can not speak for Wimmer but if it was me i would not sulk but get out on the training pitches and try to become a better player, at the moment Jan is a much better player and if Wimmer wants to take/keep his place in the side that is what he should be doing.
 
The job Wimmer did last season slotting in was about as close to seamless as we could have hoped for, but my feeling is that if Pochettino wants to stick with three at the back, the more mobile Davies may get in on the act this time round. We're certainly better covered losing Vertonghen than we would be if it were Alderweireld again.
 
Gutted for Vertonghen but pretty confident Wimmer can step in like last season and cover admirably.

The only thing I worry about is the big games, Vertonghen is a big game player in my mind and has more experience than Wimmer, perhaps an aspect of his experience that doesn't get talked about too often is his shall we say "cynical" play at times just to be politically correct. Vertonghen is very clever, he knows how to wind people up and get his opponents into trouble. This is not meant as a criticism of him. Wimmer is more than a capable deputy, but you don't ever want an important player injured for a big game like we have at Emirates Marketing Project next week, not to mention the run in we have in April/May.
 
I'm thinking we're looking at a high ankle sprain - straining or partial tearing of the muscles and/or soft tissue from the lower calf to below the bone spur on the outside of the ankle.

I had one last year whilst doing shoreline construction on wet rocks, turning my ankle in the same way Jan did . Painful as fucque and requires complete rest and immobilization to allow everything to knit back together. He'll have far better treatment at his disposal than I did but, if that's what he's done, he'll need at least two months to recover.

More confident about our chances since Wimmer has shown what he can do and Davies is well established and versatile, too.
 
galeforce said:
Today maybe, but what about a year from now, or two, it's lines on a graph and and some point they might cross.
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Verts is 30 before the end of the season. He's probably got 3 years left at the top. If we are lucky those lines will switch in prefect time - Wimmer will become the mainstay and Verts will be the reliable experienced backup.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Gutted for Vertonghen but pretty confident Wimmer can step in like last season and cover admirably.

The only thing I worry about is the big games, Vertonghen is a big game player in my mind and has more experience than Wimmer, perhaps an aspect of his experience that doesn't get talked about too often is his shall we say "cynical" play at times just to be politically correct. Vertonghen is very clever, he knows how to wind people up and get his opponents into trouble. This is not meant as a criticism of him. Wimmer is more than a capable deputy, but you don't ever want an important player injured for a big game like we have at Emirates Marketing Project next week, not to mention the run in we have in April/May.
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Wimmer knows how to take a foul too. I just don't think we've seen one mis-step yet from him - he's shown great maturity and mentality
 
Gutter Boy said:
Verts is 30 before the end of the season. He's probably got 3 years left at the top. If we are lucky those lines will switch in prefect time - Wimmer will become the mainstay and Verts will be the reliable experienced backup.
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That's all assuming Wimmer is happy to be a bit part for the next couple of years if Verts is fit....
 
All this talk about Wimmer and his potential is ignoring Ben Davies. Davies is 23, Wimmer is 24. The challenge for Davies which I see is that he's on the short side to be a CB in a back 4, and not attacking enough to be a wing back replacement for Rose. Really he's either a left back in a back 4, or a left sided CB in a back. I think he's as plausible a replacement for Verts if we're playing 3 at teh back as Wimmer
 
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