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CL Qualification vs Cups - The Neverending Story

Spur of the moment said:
I see, so you'd cheerfully settle for plummeting down the leagues with a tuppenny-hapny trophy tarnishing in the boardroom cabinet rather than challenging with the best for the PL title and a CL spot year-in, year-out, is that it?
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People don't want us to start sliding down the table in exchange for another one-off trophy, they just want something to show for the team's hard work, and on a regular basis as well, especially after the past 25 years.

Edit: Also, don't forget Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Leeds United had the same concentration in which you so desire, and look where they are now, trophyless (in the Prem era) and plying their trade in the Championship.
 
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parklane1 said:
But how does our posistion compere to those clubs, chalk and cheese as they were not in the same ballpark as we are?
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Okay, but once again if you remember, the last time we won a cup we immediately started plummeting down the table then sacked the manager after the notorious 2 points from 8 games - when dear old Harry came to the rescue. :D:D:D
 
Spur of the moment said:
Okay, but once again if you remember, the last time we won a cup we immediately started plummeting down the table then sacked the manager after the notorious 2 points from 8 games - when dear old Harry came to the rescue. :D:D:D
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True but we also sold the best strike partnership we had had since Klinsmann and Sheringham and failed to replace them, wasn't he first time and wasn't the last time we would do so.

I think we're on the right road but it will take time, maybe even longer than people hope and will be incredibly tough at the same time.
 
spurs' magna carter said:
True but we also sold the best strike partnership we had had since Klinsmann and Sheringham and failed to replace them, wasn't he first time and wasn't the last time we would do so.

I think we're on the right road but it will take time, maybe even longer than people hope and will be incredibly tough at the same time.
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Suppose what I'm saying is, whilst winning a (minor) trophy may give the club a boost going forward, it can just as easily spell trouble, if not disaster, just around the corner.
 
spurs' magna carter said:
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People don't want us to start sliding down the table in exchange for another one-off trophy, they just want something to show for the team's hard work, and on a regular basis as well, especially after the past 25 years.

Edit: Also, don't forget Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Leeds United had the same concentration in which you so desire, and look where they are now, trophyless (in the Prem era) and plying their trade in the Championship.
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Fair point. But equally, outside of the current top eight (Chelsea, Arse, Liverpool, City, United, Everton and ourselves) the rest are now either in the lower leagues or in danger of joining them.

Overall, on the face of it, it does seem that once you start to make a habit of winning trophies you are likely to carry on. But each of those four top clubs that have monopolised most of the trophies are the same ones that also have the longest runs of qualifying for the Champions League. So we're into chicken and egg territory here, methinks.

Like you say the challenge for us is to join them, whether that be via regular qualification for the CL leading to trophies, the other way around, or a bit of both.
 
spurs' magna carter said:
71c7108439.png


People don't want us to start sliding down the table in exchange for another one-off trophy, they just want something to show for the team's hard work, and on a regular basis as well, especially after the past 25 years.

Edit: Also, don't forget Saudi Sportswashing Machine and Leeds United had the same concentration in which you so desire, and look where they are now, trophyless (in the Prem era) and plying their trade in the Championship.
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Don't take this personally, mate, but I was just wondering how long it would be before the first 'doing a Leeds' would pop up in this thread. :p It was the same stuff back when a few posters (myself included) were calling for more spending on players the various managers (Harry, AVB, etcetera) wanted - you could count on one hand the number of minutes before the first claims of us potentially 'doing a Leeds' would emerge angrily into the light. Strangely enough, I haven't seen those arguments in the wild for a while now (until your post, of course) - even when Levy finally (commendably) did go into the red for Poch this year. ;)

Anyway, to address the issue at hand, and to recycle the arguments used in days past - imo, it was a bit much then to claim that a bit of extra spending on first-choice targets would lead to a 'Leeds', and it's a bit much now to claim that focusing more on the 6-12 domestic cup games or the 12 or so European games in pursuit of a trophy would bring about a 'Leeds' now.
 
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There's been some upsets in the cups in the last few seasons; Portsmouth, Wigan, Brum, Swansea etc. But the so called "big four" dominated the CC and FA Cups in the last 10 years or so, Emirates Marketing Project have joined the party as well. As others have pointed out, the CL attracts better players and raises the profile of your club, which is what we are trying to achieve. This ultimately puts you in a better position to win trophies.

The FA Cup and a top 4 finish should be achievable.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Don't take this personally, mate, but I was just wondering how long it would be before the first 'doing a Leeds' would pop up in this thread. :p It was the same stuff back when a few posters (myself included) were calling for more spending on players the various managers (Harry, AVB, etcetera) wanted - you could count on one hand the number of minutes before the first claims of us potentially 'doing a Leeds' would emerge angrily into the light. Strangely enough, I haven't seen those arguments in the wild for a while now (until your post, of course) - even when Levy finally (commendably) did go into the red for Poch this year. ;)

Anyway, to address the issue at hand, and to recycle the arguments used in days past - imo, it was a bit much then to claim that a bit of extra spending on first-choice targets would lead to a 'Leeds', and it's a bit much now to claim that focusing more on the 6-12 domestic cup games or the 12 or so European games in pursuit of a trophy would bring about a 'Leeds' now.
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Lol no worries mate.

What I meant was that whilst Leeds ended up in a financial mess that made Irvin Scholar look like a forensic accountant, they were just nearly men, everyone goes on about how good they were but they never won anything or even came close to doing so during that five year period (1997-2002) where they 'lived the dream'. To put it simply, even from a purely footballing perspective, it really wasn't all that, even a very good memorable side in Saudi Sportswashing Machine (1995 - 1999) in the end won nothing and I think if they had won at least 2 of the runners up places (2 PL runners up, 2 FA Cup runners up) they made in that four year period, it could've lasted a little longer at least. When they signed Shearer they were in the same, if not better, position than we are now and it all ended empty handed and suffering a heavy fall from grace which they have never recovered from although was also down to the emergence of Wenger and the reckless spending of Chelsea and Leeds.

Its a shame that such a good little era under Redknapp ended empty handed and painful to see the holy trinity leave us without a trophy to their name.

I do agree though that the aim should be both UCL and trophies but at the moment we're a long way from achieving that.
 
Rorschach said:
They are not connected
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Well I don't know, maybe your right, but I find it hard to escape the conclusion that in the case of the lesser clubs where winning a domestic trophy is such a massive deal for them, once they have won it they inevitably give a kind of collective sigh of relief and let go a little.

They have put so much of themselves into winning the trophy that maybe for a critical period they are no longer able to sustain the intensity of application essential for survival in the PL. Even for the major clubs there is often a backwash after winning a major trophy - see Chelsea last season and City the season before that.

Like I say the intensity of competition in the PL is always fierce, there is just no way you can afford to let up for one moment. The amount of money at stake is huge but the lesser clubs are unlikely to have the squads sufficient to sustain commitment to more than one competition over an extended period. They are inevitably more susceptible than the big boys to becoming overstretched and vulnerable to a crisis.

So the message to the lesser clubs that make it into the PL seems ominous. Be wary of success in the domestic cups, it just might be at the expense of your survival in the top flight.
 
you'd have to look at it on a case by case basis but there must have been occasions where a lesser clubs upcoming cup game affected the selection for a league game, even marginal effects are relevant
 
http://swissramble.blogspot.sg/2016/04/tottenham-hotspur-moving-on-up.html

good read about money matters. tasty bits:

Tottenham have grown their revenue by £83 million (74%) since 2009. Like most other Premier League clubs, much of this has simply been driven by the new TV deals with broadcasting income contributing £50 million of this growth. This can be seen by the increases in 2011 and 2014 in line with the new three-year cycles of the Premier League TV deals. The rise to £164 million in 2011 was also boosted by £37 million from the Champions League (prize money and gate receipts).​

another argument for CL is to motivate young players to dream and achieve big (like bale) who's sale can help drive our revenue. player trading has been a critical part of our income so far:

Levy explained the strategy thus, “Our pragmatic player trading has been important in the way we have run the business of the club and in getting us to the position where we have now been able to start work on a new stadium.” Indeed, without those player sales, Tottenham would have reported losses of £141 million.​
 
Personally I would still rather finish 4th than win the FA or League cup. But it's nothing to do with money. I just think a) it's a more impressive achievement, finishing above 2 of the richer clubs over the course of 38 games (rather than beating mostly inferior teams over about 4 games, then a better team over 1 or 2 games). And b) there's more prestige and glory having the chance to play and beat some of the European giants.

I'm 32, and the 3 moments that have felt most glorious to me as a Spurs fan are a) beating Emirates Marketing Project to finish above them and Liverpool in 4th, b) beating Inter Milan, and c) beating AC Milan. All more glorious for me than beating Chelsea in a one off game to win the League Cup (though obviously that was great too, especially having thrashed Arsenal in the semis).

Having said all that, this year's CL campaign was so depressing that I might have changed my mind going forward. And perhaps 2009-11's CL exploits had a magical first time feeling that can't be recreated.

EDIT: Just to illustrate my point, here's the journeys of the last 3 FA Cup winners - the winner in bold, the teams they beat along the way underneath, finishing with the team they beat in the final underlined. Hardly screams glory in my opinion, compared to the Champions League qualification and run in 2009-11.

Man Utd
Sheffield Utd
Derby
Shrewsbury
West Ham
Everton
Crystal Palace

Arsenal
Hull
Brighton
Middlesborough
Man Utd
Reading
Aston Villa

Arsenal
Spurs
Coventry
Liverpool
Everton
Wigan
Hull



 
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parklane1 said:
And ( imo) its shameful.
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Yes but it's also the real world.

As has often been suggested the obvious answer would be to award a CL place to the winners of the domestic cups but given that's never likely to happen the domestic cups will continue to be treated as a sideshow.
 
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