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CL Qualification vs Cups - The Neverending Story

spurs' magna carter said:
Where in our honours list does it say 'Finished 4th'?

After our collapse at Stamford Bridge (4-0) during Sherwood's short spell in charge I finally turned my back on the obsession with UCL football and started preaching the need to focus on trophies. Even before this I always argued that if it wasn't for the back-to-back cup finals in 2008 and 2009, we would never have finished 4th in 2010.

I have felt that the only way we can turn the tide against the 'weak mentally' is to start winning trophies. The idea that just being in the UCL is enough is as rediculous as the idea of having an economy that relies on our housing market to double every other year, it really is a footballing version of a coked up Stock trader talking about '100 years of blues skies'.

Sadly modern football is essentially in a period of pure decadence and monopolies.
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Excellant post.
 
metalgear said:
if we sustain top 4 for the next 10 years.
i am willing to wager along the way we will win a cup.
how? by attracting better players and gradually building up our bench strength.
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Exactly, short term thinkers want to win a cup now. Long term thinkers want to win lots of cups over a longer period of time, and the best way to do that is build the quality/club etc.
 
Bullet said:
Exactly, short term thinkers want to win a cup now. Long term thinkers want to win lots of cups over a longer period of time, and the best way to do that is build the quality/club etc.
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Trophies are more long term than UCL when it comes to mentality although the UCL UCL wins hands down when it comes to money.

I'm in no doubt that continuous UCL qualification would bring massive benefits but trophies are the end goal, they're eternal, set in stone so to speak.

Regardless as to what we achieve in the years to come, we still have a £500-700m (varying on reports) project to pay for, and it's not gonna pay for itself.

The league is our bread and butter, and to ignore it as Leicester have, or we did 6 years ago, would've been more shot-term thinking than anything.
 
Rorschach said:
Don't take this as an attack on you @Spur of the moment but I could not agree less.

Football is about winning trophies not who qualifies for the CL the most, and it is as simple as that for me. Somewhere along the line the media have convinced fans that the only way to win those trophies is to qualify for CL and thus generate enough revenue to compete for a trophy :confused:. And this qualification should take precedence over competing for trophies o_O.

I understand the club has to compete financially, I am not naive about that, but this is not a game of who is the richest. It is football and the glory is to be had on the pitch, not in the bank or boardroom.

I also understand the domestic cup competitions mean less now to most. However this for me is to the detriment of the game as a whole. When did it become more important to be a rich club than a successful one. In the last 11 years Seville have won 9 trophies including 5 Europa leagues. I'd take that over 9 CL qualifications every day.
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I don't see Sevilla signing players like Mesut Ozil and Alexis Sanchez, do you?

And I'd ask you to cast your minds back to the summer of 2008, the last one we went into as a trophy holder. Our two best players left us for teams in the Champions League (including to a 4th placed Liverpool side who had ended the last two seasons trophyless).

The problem as well with the cups is that they are ENORMOUS gambles. Yes, that's part of the reason why there's a bit of magic to them. But if you're hedging your bets, unless you're in the latter stages or you've got nothing to play for in the league, it's a big risk to go all out for them. What did Liverpool have to show for their season last year? An 8th place finish. Whoop-dee-fudging doo.

Winning the CC in 2008 was fantastic, and it's been so long that I'd love to have that feeling again. But...let's be pragmatic here. What did winning cups recently do for Swansea, Wigan, Portsmouth or Birmingham? Whereas when you get a reputation for being a Champions League regular that can afford Champions League wages, you progress as a club. I don't like it, but that's the way things are. Either get with the picture or we're destined to be a brick team that moans about how much better football was in the good old days forever.
 
Modric THFC said:
Look at United's season last year.
A complete failure.
LVG seen as out of date.

No one even noticed they won the FA Cup against Palace.

The FA Cup hasn't been a major trophy since the 90s.
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Honestly if you asked me won the FA cup in the last 5 years I'd make it up and guess
 
SUIYHA said:
I don't see Sevilla signing players like Mesut Ozil and Alexis Sanchez, do you?

And I'd ask you to cast your minds back to the summer of 2008, the last one we went into as a trophy holder. Our two best players left us for teams in the Champions League (including to a 4th placed Liverpool side who had ended the last two seasons trophyless).

The problem as well with the cups is that they are ENORMOUS gambles. Yes, that's part of the reason why there's a bit of magic to them. But if you're hedging your bets, unless you're in the latter stages or you've got nothing to play for in the league, it's a big risk to go all out for them. What did Liverpool have to show for their season last year? An 8th place finish. Whoop-dee-fudging doo.

Winning the CC in 2008 was fantastic, and it's been so long that I'd love to have that feeling again. But...let's be pragmatic here. What did winning cups recently do for Swansea, Wigan, Portsmouth or Birmingham? Whereas when you get a reputation for being a Champions League regular that can afford Champions League wages, you progress as a club. I don't like it, but that's the way things are. Either get with the picture or we're destined to be a brick team that moans about how much better football was in the good old days forever.
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Players want money more than trophies - as evidenced by great players joining the doped sides

There is a limit as who can win what but their is no limit to what some fool will pay you

Being in the champions league attracts players who want to play in it... which in theory makes you a better side (not always true) - which in turn makes you more competitive

I'm sure of you look at the league winners from all the leagues I Europe you will maybe get one a season (and an odd one at that) that wasn't in the champions league that season. I mean Leicester last season as that example

We do hold a value on the FA Cup here at Spurs but it was devalued the day united didn't have to start in the 3rd round
 
As usual with this debate you have opposing views coming at it from different angles.

Winning a trophy is better than finishing 4th and if the world was going to end in May we'd all want to go out lifting a trophy, however if we want to become consistent league title challengers/winners then consistent Champions League qualification is going to be what elevates us up to that level, not the odd cup win here or there.
 
We want to do both, but we need to prioritise the league if we want to be among the best, retain/attract big players and consistently compete for trophies. Top 4 shouldn't be the aim, the title should be the aim; finishing top 4 will be a by-product of failing to win the league, like last season. That's where we wanna be every year and then the cup wins will take care of themselves.
 
CL money is relatively small fry compared to what you get from the PL nowadays isn't it? Which wasn't the case say 10 years ago. Maybe consistent CL qualification elevates the club's status a little but ultimately players go where the money is.
 
For winning the EFL cup £100k.
FA Cup £1.8m
We got £95m last season for coming 3rd.:)
CL R16 £2.7m for getting out of group stages.

Champions-League-Prize-money.jpg
 
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StephenH said:
For winning the EFL cup £100k.
FA Cup £1,800,000
We got £95m last season for coming 3rd.:)
CL win £2.7m for getting to group stages.
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Not as simple as that though is it. TV money? Advertising revenue? Gate receipts? Commercial spin-offs (shirt sales etc)? Uplift in players we can attract? Increase in global reach?
 
Spur of the moment said:
Not as simple as that though is it. TV money? Advertising revenue? Gate receipts? Commercial spin-offs (shirt sales etc)? Uplift in players we can attract? Increase in global reach?
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Trouble is it is that simple.
Uplift in players we can attract? ..........$£€ is what attracts players
 
What did winning cups recently do for Swansea, Wigan, Portsmouth or Birmingham?

More important is what it did for the fans. It gave them memories which last for ever. It cemented their passion. It gave the club some Glory - that elusive thing which we at Spurs aspire to - and so it gave the supporters a little of that reflected glory. Sport is cruel in that winning is everything. Successful clubs win things...and we are overdue a cup......
 
lurker of old said:
What did winning cups recently do for Swansea, Wigan, Portsmouth or Birmingham?

More important is what it did for the fans. It gave them memories which last for ever. It cemented their passion. It gave the club some Glory - that elusive thing which we at Spurs aspire to - and so it gave the supporters a little of that reflected glory. Sport is cruel in that winning is everything. Successful clubs win things...and we are overdue a cup......
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I see, so you'd cheerfully settle for plummeting down the leagues with a tuppenny-hapny trophy tarnishing in the boardroom cabinet rather than challenging with the best for the PL title and a CL spot year-in, year-out, is that it?
 
Spur of the moment said:
I see, so you'd cheerfully settle for plummeting down the leagues with a tuppenny-hapny trophy tarnishing in the boardroom cabinet rather than challenging with the best for the PL title and a CL spot year-in, year-out, is that it?
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I do not think ANYONE has suggested we should plummet down the leagues :rolleyes: just so we can win a trophy. talk about hyperbole.
 
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