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Anthony Martial

Honestly, if we did, I cant help feeling it would just be to send a message to Utd.

I dont think anyone would expect a bid to be successful.

I do think its a fair bet most of this with Danny Rose is Utds doing though, and Mourinho did nothing to distance himself from the idea either.

So I wouldnt be surprised if it was a bit of a "fudge you" from us to them.

If it happened of course ;):)
 
Gazzasrightboot said:
Not really, they are two different players. Levy's preference is to buy young players with significant upside opportunity. Aguero as a younger, more prolific striker would command a much higher premium. So just because Levy would be willing to spend £30m+ on Aguero doesn't mean that he would be willing to spend £10m on Peter Crouch or £20 odd million on Coutinho. The point is every transfer is independent of another and Levy is not sat there thinking I have £30m burning a whole in my pocket let me spend it on any player that comes along. Rather, there would be some sort of business case attached to each transfer with risks etc.... and that will dictate how much he would be willing to spend.


Yes, because a lot can happen in that time period. The belief that there is a pot of money set aside for transfers is overly simplistic. He doesn't just say here you go Poch, spend this money. Every player will be determined on their qualities including affordability, our desperation, the selling club's desperation and the player's desperation. Sanctioning 3 bids could have been 1 firm bid and 2 enquiries. I certainly don't believe that Levy would have bought any more than one of those players.
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Affordablity - all three broke our transfer record - in fact, each bid was more than 200% the value of our previous record transfer. Even VdV, the marquee signing that you used as an example of Levy proving willing to push the boat out on deadline day, came for about a third of the prices that were being bandied about for those three strikers. Our desperation - we were desperate for a striker to push us over the line, but we were also trying to strengthen from a position of superiority. I'd argue that we were actually less invested from that regard than we would have been when approaching Moutinho, where we were trying to fill a newly-made hole in the squad. Simple logic - plugging gaps is usually a more desperate endeavour than strengthening from a certain base, and I'm sure you'd agree with that. The selling clubs - none wanted to sell, but if that were the case, it would be even more ill-advised trying to throw offers that were apparently straight-up *rejected* without a second thought on deadline day, with no time afforded to the clubs to purchase replacements for their departing stars. And Levy would have known this - he was not and is not stupid, whatever else he may have been back then.

As for firm bids and inquiries, the reporting that we have available to go on stated that they were firm bids, not just inquiries. I don't think we would have bought all three of them, but I just find it exceedingly hard to believe we were interested in bringing in *any* of them, since we were apparently prepared to negotiate on three simultaneous bids at the same time on deadline day when negotiating about just *one* a year and a half later proved beyond us. Your argument about Moutinho and Aguero/Llorente/Rossi being different players is true, but I'd argue that that doesn't change the *time* it takes to negotiate a transfer on deadline day all that much - especially when Levy's involved. Negotiating three simultaneously when we couldn't get one over the line for a fee much smaller than the ones being bandied about in January 2011 is a proposition that strains credulity.

Gazzasrightboot said:
I really don't think that it is. I did not praise Levy any more for making a bid because I didn't have a problem with him not making huge purchases. Yeah sure, I would love to have superstar players, but I am a realist and I can understand why he is taking the approach that he is doing. In the course of that you will win some transfers and lose some transfers. It is that binary, yet to accuse someone of wasting his own time and everyone elses by making false bids is just, in my mind, looking for any reason to criticise him. Especially if the only gain is that he could have placated a proportion of fans who probably weren't the section of fans that are making the most amount of noise about a lack of signings.
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But the point is, you believe he made these bids - you believe that he was showing ambition by making these bids, and that they really happened. So if the news is leaked enough, a section of our fans (probably at least half of us, if not more) would believe that it was made despite any evidence or supposition to the contrary. So it does work if you want to prove that you actually did something, for whatever reason - when the reality *may* be different.

Gazzasrightboot said:
I do prefer to believe that the he made these bids in good faith, because there is no evidence beyond supposition to suggest that the alternative is true. Innocent until proven guilty not guilty until proven innocent. And that is the real issue here. On the one side there is a set of fans that presume Levy is working in the best interests of the club and where there is a benefit of doubt to be given, give it based on the success that he has achieved with this club since he has bought it. Then there is another set of fans that presume Levy is a penny pincher, is always looking to hoodwink the fans, is only in this business to make a fortune and move on and doesn't give one brick about the club, so when there is the chance to give him the benefit of the doubt, they don't and instead criticise the man for daring to purchase a world class striker. With one set of fans he wins more often than not, and with the other he can't win. Not until Aguero or another superstar footballer is signed that we have beaten Man United and the rest to.
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Oh, no, you don't get to make up ludicrous strawmen quite so easily. Using this fantastically easy approach, I could argue the exact opposite - that there are two sets of fans, one rationally willing to apportion praise where it is deserved and criticism where it's appropriate, and one that cares more about Levy's reputation than the wellbeing of the club itself, and that would, in a hypothetically altered scenario, still rabidly sing his praises if we were in the Championship because of their loyalty to the man over the well-being of the club he runs. That cares more about Joe Lewis preserving his fortune than him investing into the club they purportedly support.

I won't, because it's too easy, and too stupid, and too divisive. But that sort of argument is one that I can't stand. Ultimately, your premise is based on the idea that I'm criticising the man for *daring* to purchase a world-class striker - no, I'm not, because we didn't end up buying one, did we? All we did was throw three ludicrous bids around on deadline day after being silent for thirty days of the window prior to that, and failing with all three. We also didn't pursue that interest into the next window, or even make a permanent signing up front with all that money we were apparently willing to slosh about for Aguero, Llorente and Rossi - we brought in Adebayor on loan, and that supposed willingness to spend beyond incomings vanished as we made a hefty profit on that summer's outgoings.

I'm criticising the idea that those bids were real, or made with any serious intent - they were not, to my mind. 'Daring to purchase a world-class striker' is not something to criticise Levy for - if he does it, it's worth praising him for. But he didn't. Not that January, and not the following summer. He *tried*. How seriously he tried is the meat of the issue here.
 
Can we just delete this thread please.

Besides we have not had any ITK like ...

"My source tells me blue and yellow are no longer the colours, there is a new sherrif in town that once flashed a red badge ... levy is determined to get done"
 
DubaiSpur said:
Affordablity - all three broke our transfer record - in fact, each bid was more than 200% the value of our previous record transfer. Even VdV, the marquee signing that you used as an example of Levy proving willing to push the boat out on deadline day, came for about a third of the prices that were being bandied about for those three strikers. Our desperation - we were desperate for a striker to push us over the line, but we were also trying to strengthen from a position of superiority. I'd argue that we were actually less invested from that regard than we would have been when approaching Moutinho, where we were trying to fill a newly-made hole in the squad. Simple logic - plugging gaps is usually a more desperate endeavour than strengthening from a certain base, and I'm sure you'd agree with that. The selling clubs - none wanted to sell, but if that were the case, it would be even more ill-advised trying to throw offers that were apparently straight-up *rejected* without a second thought on deadline day, with no time afforded to the clubs to purchase replacements for their departing stars. And Levy would have known this - he was not and is not stupid, whatever else he may have been back then.

As for firm bids and inquiries, the reporting that we have available to go on stated that they were firm bids, not just inquiries. I don't think we would have bought all three of them, but I just find it exceedingly hard to believe we were interested in bringing in *any* of them, since we were apparently prepared to negotiate on three simultaneous bids at the same time on deadline day when negotiating about just *one* a year and a half later proved beyond us. Your argument about Moutinho and Aguero/Llorente/Rossi being different players is true, but I'd argue that that doesn't change the *time* it takes to negotiate a transfer on deadline day all that much - especially when Levy's involved. Negotiating three simultaneously when we couldn't get one over the line for a fee much smaller than the ones being bandied about in January 2011 is a proposition that strains credulity.

But the point is, you believe he made these bids - you believe that he was showing ambition by making these bids, and that they really happened. So if the news is leaked enough, a section of our fans (probably at least half of us, if not more) would believe that it was made despite any evidence or supposition to the contrary. So it does work if you want to prove that you actually did something, for whatever reason - when the reality *may* be different.

Oh, no, you don't get to make up ludicrous strawmen quite so easily. Using this fantastically easy approach, I could argue the exact opposite - that there are two sets of fans, one rationally willing to apportion praise where it is deserved and criticism where it's appropriate, and one that cares more about Levy's reputation than the wellbeing of the club itself, and that would, in a hypothetically altered scenario, still rabidly sing his praises if we were in the Championship because of their loyalty to the man over the well-being of the club he runs. That cares more about Joe Lewis preserving his fortune than him investing into the club they purportedly support.

I won't, because it's too easy, and too stupid, and too divisive. But that sort of argument is one that I can't stand. Ultimately, your premise is based on the idea that I'm criticising the man for *daring* to purchase a world-class striker - no, I'm not, because we didn't end up buying one, did we? All we did was throw three ludicrous bids around on deadline day after being silent for thirty days of the window prior to that, and failing with all three. We also didn't pursue that interest into the next window, or even make a permanent signing up front with all that money we were apparently willing to slosh about for Aguero, Llorente and Rossi - we brought in Adebayor on loan, and that supposed willingness to spend beyond incomings vanished as we made a hefty profit on that summer's outgoings.

I'm criticising the idea that those bids were real, or made with any serious intent - they were not, to my mind. 'Daring to purchase a world-class striker' is not something to criticise Levy for - if he does it, it's worth praising him for. But he didn't. Not that January, and not the following summer. He *tried*. How seriously he tried is the meat of the issue here.
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I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I use a fantastically easy approach because that is what is being presented in reverse. 3 bids were made, and the argument was they were just a non-serious way to get fans on side. I think that is ludicrous, because Levy has never been one to bow to fan pressure one way or another. So why make a token effort on the last day? Why not do it throughout the window and show that we are a club that is always looking to buy superstar players. It's just not his style and there have been no other examples to show that this is his way of working. No benefit of doubt is afforded because it is assumed that just because he couldn't get a deal for a smaller fee done on the last day therefore means that he can't do one for a larger fee. To assume that just because things have not been leaked to the press means that we have done nothing up until a bid is made is a very binary way of looking at things. It should be widely known that no club ever just presents a bid for a player. The guy does value his own time. Why waste it on something so superfluous? Doesn't make sense one bit.

And I am afraid that you are criticising him for daring to buy a world class striker. He tried, but not enough in your opinion, and the only evidence is the fact that he had not been able to push through a much smaller deal in the same timeframe, and he didn't pursue those same targets in future transfer windows. Moutinho had third party ownership did he not? Is that not a completely separate reason for that to be a completely independent transfer and not one to base other transfers on? He did manage Sissoko on the last day. He did manage VdV on the last day. If his reputation is to be believed, he only operates on the last day!

My real issue with all of this is that when a transfer fails, it is always because Levy has failed. No consideration is made of any other factors that could have been the reason i.e. we were not champions league regulars at the time, we could not structure payments in a way that would suit the other club or we did not offer enough in the terms of image rights to the player. It could be any one of those things, yet it always comes back down to being solely Levy's fault. That is a very simple way of looking at things.

As for why he didn't buy any of these players in the next window, I think one of the reasons could be because we were not in the Champions League and they were.

Finally, I think we should take the many hints of not hijacking this thread and call it a day!
 
Who: Hertyid
When: 18th August
Where: COYS On Martial

"This one has legs"

"Word is Woodward is in discussions while Jose is bigging him up in the press. Good cop bad cop. Martial wants regular football and doesn't have good relationship with Mourinho. Let's see"
 
Daisuk said:
Who: Hertyid
When: 18th August
Where: COYS On Martial

"This one has legs"

"Word is Woodward is in discussions while Jose is bigging him up in the press. Good cop bad cop. Martial wants regular football and doesn't have good relationship with Mourinho. Let's see"
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Superseded, surely, by Martial playing today. Typical ITK nonsense, as I gather one is allowed to say here.
 
Martial would imo give us the ability to win the league. A front four of Kane, Martial, Eriksen and Alli has the potential to be world class. I'm not discounting Son, but Martial has the potential to be a step above him and might already be so.
This would also give us real squad depth, it would see us being able to mount a threat on multiple front.

That is why I cannot see it happening. Mourinho would not want to boost a competitor not to mention the footballing gods being set against us.
 
Cochise said:
Martial would imo give us the ability to win the league. A front four of Kane, Martial, Eriksen and Alli has the potential to be world class. I'm not discounting Son, but Martial has the potential to be a step above him and might already be so.
This would also give us real squad depth, it would see us being able to mount a threat on multiple front.

That is why I cannot see it happening. Mourinho would not want to boost a competitor not to mention the footballing gods being set against us.
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Mourinhio has been qouted in the past as saying he has no problem selling to rivals. As with when he sold Mata to United before he went there. But I never believed him. I always think he only minds if he think that player is not up to it.

At this moment in Time he is taking up Martial. No way they are selling him. And I dont think we would be his first choice even if he did leave and that we could afford his wages. He has to been on 150k or more.

This one has no legs at all.
 
A player like this would be a genuine game changer and is the one element we're missing, someone with pace who can operate out wide but also central as well as scoring 10-20 goals a season. I think Poch knows this hence Njie and N'Kdodou but neither have kicked on as hoped.
 
P.D. said:
A player like this would be a genuine game changer and is the one element we're missing, someone with pace who can operate out wide but also central as well as scoring 10-20 goals a season. I think Poch knows this hence Njie and N'Kdodou but neither have kicked on as hoped.
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I think the problem is that Mourinho and Man Utd also know this. Hence why the player will not be coming to Spurs at any point in the near future.
 
I think some fans think that we should have pushed the boat out a little and got a quality player that could make the difference like martial instead of going for nkoudo or njie ... If only his name was nmartial could have nabbed him.
 
Gazza said:
I think some fans think that we should have pushed the boat out a little and got a quality player that could make the difference like martial instead of going for nkoudo or njie ... If only his name was nmartial could have nabbed him.
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I thought we tried for Martial 2 years ago (pre Njie), but United blew us out of the water on fee and wages.

We've not got the resources to get a Martial or Balde at the stage they are in their career, so we do have to find the next one (maybe third time lucky)
 
Gutter Boy said:
I thought we tried for Martial 2 years ago (pre Njie), but United blew us out of the water on fee and wages.

We've not got the resources to get a Martial or Balde at the stage they are in their career, so we do have to find the next one (maybe third time lucky)
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United paid double what we were quoted
 
Gutter Boy said:
I thought we tried for Martial 2 years ago (pre Njie), but United blew us out of the water on fee and wages.

We've not got the resources to get a Martial or Balde at the stage they are in their career, so we do have to find the next one (maybe third time lucky)
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Not quite.... We tried for Martial prior to him having signed a new contract at Monaco. I think the story was that we bid about £18 million when Monaco were asking for £25 million.

Martial ended up signing a new contract at Monaco. It was a little while after than Man Utd went in for him with the price having jumped considerably on account of Monaco holding more aces due to the long contract.

I thought that the transfer showed that Man Utd must have missed out on their first choice target (and possibly first and second choice) as they would've acted prior to Martial signing the new contract otherwise.
 
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