Ross Barkley

[scaramanga]

Morning all.

Its been 4 years since I posted and my log in still works, who would have thought?!

Scara, I think you've got a bit carried away on Barkley.

I do agree he has big potential. I do not agree he is "not very good at all" (I actually think he is very good when on form, albeit inconsistent). Though its fair to say his development has stalled.

His debut season was under Moyes, a vastly over rated manager who is from the Pulis/Allardyce school of "whatever you do dont lose", not the "why dont we try and win this?" alternative.

I dont think Moyes is a good fit for Barkleys play style, though to be fair he did look promising under him.

Then came Martinez for the next three seasons. A manager well known for his considered tactics, well implemented system of play, balance of team, and development of youth. No, wait, thats Pochettino Im thinking of. Martinez is a hack who gets early joy from motivational speeches and then just falls apart.

And then of course Koeman who clearly just doesnt like him.

Is it any surprise Barkleys education stalled?

I also think Barkley is oftern misrepresented when people talk of him in comparison to Alli/Eriksen/Lamela - for me he is an obvious understudy to Dembele. While he doesnt play like Dembele, he performs a very similar function, IE keep the ball rotating in midfield and try to penetrate forwards with it (by pass or dribble). He is a much more incisive passer, IMO, and while a very competent dribbler nobody can match Dembele there.

Barkley has skill, reasonable pace, excellent work rate, good technique in striking/passing the ball and good vision. He can see and execute passes that many players simply cannot. All of this is evident, though his achilles heel - it is all fleeting as well.

I personally think Pochettino could do fantastic things with him. He already has the work rate, imagine him actually being taught a position, and played in a side that understands that position and what Barkley can do. Its more than "arm around the shoulder" stuff, its educating the boy and putting him in the right environment. Given the success Pochettino has had intergrating players, I am surprised people doubt what he can do with Barkley so much.

As to worth, with this window who can even say what is reasonable? A year ago, £25m for him with 2 years on his contract would have been ok. I would have forseen this summer and £25-30m with one year and said it was madness.

Then Lukaku went for £70m, Neymar £200m, Coutinho being talked of at £100m and Arnautovic the donkey went for £20m+...

...and suddenly £25-30m on a player (I believe is) well suited to us, of a good age and with a huge upside when he realises his potential just doesnt seem so bad.

Again though, this all comes down to risk.

We don't know if his development has stalled or peaked - even Poch and Levy have to make a guess at that. So the price has to reflect that risk. £40m is ridiculous to pay for potential - even Utd didn't get raped that bad for Martial and his ceiling is way higher. £20m represents a good reflection of the fact that it's entirely possible this is as good as Barkley gets, and if so he'll spend very little time on the pitch for us.

 

[scaramanga]

When he was 23, was Dembele doing what Dembele does now? He was playing further forward earlier in his career, so I am guessing he wasn't as good defensively at that point. He has evolved as a player over the course of his career, perhaps Poch sees some similar raw attributes and talent to work with re. Barkley. He is strong, he can dribble, he can create and pass. He could play well for us behind Kane or potentially deeper. I think Poch would shape him into a very effective player and he'd also benefit from playing alongside much better players than he has previously.

No he wasn't. That's why he had the choice of Fulham or Birmingham as transfer destinations.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Again though, this all comes down to risk.

We don't know if his development has stalled or peaked - even Poch and Levy have to make a guess at that. So the price has to reflect that risk. £40m is ridiculous to pay for potential - even Utd didn't get raped that bad for Martial and his ceiling is way higher. £20m represents a good reflection of the fact that it's entirely possible this is as good as Barkley gets, and if so he'll spend very little time on the pitch for us.

Doesnt everything?

Clearly Levy isnt adverse to gambling, albeit usually on a more educated risk approach, but all transfers are the same.

Im far more interested in the player than the fee, I know Levy wont ever put us in trouble on that front so why concern myself?

I agree with much of your assessment of Barkley, though I take the stance more of seeing mitigation in his Everton circumstance for his stalling, and the liklihood of Poch realising more of his talent in a positive and structured environment.

I think, should we get him, in a couple of years he will be viewed as a bargain whatever the price we end up paying.

And - as has been pointed out - the market is batbrick crazy, I mean seriously, who even knows what represents a players value at this point?

 

[Pirate55]

So we can't discuss the value of the player?

So he's a good buy whether we spend £10m or £100m?

Your logic, as usual, is not particularly solid.

A

So we can't discuss the value of the player?

So he's a good buy whether we spend £10m or £100m?

Your logic, as usual, is not particularly solid.

Rather than resort to your usual denigrating tone, why not try and accept you may not always be right. If judged by price alone, is Dele a £5m player? Is Sissoko a £30m player? Is Walker 10 times better than Dele?

Is Barkley a good player at 20m but a bad player at 25m ? Where is the tipping point? It is only your subjective view of "value". The price paid is determined by the market - you do understand that point don't you? It is for Poch and Levy to decide whether the think he is good "value" to Spurs - not you.

You may or may not think Neymar, Pogba, Lacazette et al are good 'value" but the fact is that the buying club think they are good value to them. At the end of the day, the price paid is immaterial to us fans. What matters to us is whether the player will improve the squad. Barkley would do so in my opinion. The price we pay for him is up to the club not your somewhat skewed view of "worth".

 

[scaramanga]

Doesnt everything?

Clearly Levy isnt adverse to gambling, albeit usually on a more educated risk approach, but all transfers are the same.

Im far more interested in the player than the fee, I know Levy wont ever put us in trouble on that front so why concern myself?

I agree with much of your assessment of Barkley, though I take the stance more of seeing mitigation in his Everton circumstance for his stalling, and the liklihood of Poch realising more of his talent in a positive and structured environment.

I think, should we get him, in a couple of years he will be viewed as a bargain whatever the price we end up paying.

And - as has been pointed out - the market is batbrick crazy, I mean seriously, who even knows what represents a players value at this point?

I think we should get him, unfortunately I think Everton have bought into this English = valuable myth and will price us out.

If he puts in a transfer request and insists on leaving then the price might be more reasonable. A lot also depends on what we can sell Sissoko for. I'd like to have Barkley on our bench a lot more than I would Sissoko, but if we take a bath on that sale and also pay over the odds for Barkley (who may not step up) we're having a bad couple of windows.

 

[scaramanga]

Rather than resort to your usual denigrating tone, why not try and accept you may not always be right.

That's incredibly rare - it's unlikely.

If judged by price alone, is Dele a £5m player? Is Sissoko a £30m player? Is Walker 10 times better than Dele?

Funnily enough, I'm not too concerned about us underpaying for players.

Is Barkley a good player at 20m but a bad player at 25m ? Where is the tipping point? It is only your subjective view of "value". The price paid is determined by the market - you do understand that point don't you? It is for Poch and Levy to decide whether the think he is good "value" to Spurs - not you.

As he's not good enough for our first team, Barkley is potential - nothing more or less. So that potential has to be weighed against resale value if it doesn't work out.

If we buy Barkley for £40m and he flops, do you think we'll get our money back? We almost certainly would at £20m and that's something we have to take into account.

You may or may not think Neymar, Pogba, Lacazette et al are good 'value" but the fact is that the buying club think they are good value to them. At the end of the day, the price paid is immaterial to us fans. What matters to us is whether the player will improve the squad. Barkley would do so in my opinion. The price we pay for him is up to the club not your somewhat skewed view of "worth".

So was buying Pogba for his price a good move? Would you recommend Levy does that now?

Price is absolutely as much as part of it as ability - until or unless money stops being finite then we have to consider it.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think its more the case of Everton trying to act the big un, and see us as a rival.

They are in that "best of the rest" position we were a few years ago, no doubt planning on ascending as we have - backed by a new rich owner.

I think a lot of it is show in that regard. They cant be seen to be losing to us.

Which is why I think any Barkley deal hinges on them getting Sigurdsson first (ironically a cast off of ours!).

 

[Pirate55]

That's incredibly rare - it's unlikely.


Funnily enough, I'm not too concerned about us underpaying for players.


As he's not good enough for our first team, Barkley is potential - nothing more or less. So that potential has to be weighed against resale value if it doesn't work out.

If we buy Barkley for £40m and he flops, do you think we'll get our money back? We almost certainly would at £20m and that's something we have to take into account.


So was buying Pogba for his price a good move? Would you recommend Levy does that now?

Price is absolutely as much as part of it as ability - until or unless money stops being finite then we have to consider it.

So, in your not so humble opinion as master of all he surveys (at least in your own mind)) pray tell us mere mortals, what is the "correct" price for Barkley a player you now say "we should get"?

 

[parklane1]

There have been some good points from both for/against sides of this debate. I think Barkley is/has been overhyped by the press ( nothing new in that) as most young English players seem to be. My opinion is that i have never really been impressed that much by him and as i have said before it all depends on what price we could get him for ( i have seen prices ranging from 20 to 50 million mentioned). IF we can get him for around the bottom price ( ie 20 to 25 million) then he may be the sort of player Poch can improve.

 

[scaramanga]

So, in your not so humble opinion as master of all he surveys (at least in your own mind)) pray tell us mere mortals, what is the "correct" price for Barkley a player you now say "we should get"?

As I said pages ago in this thread, £20-25m max is a good buy. Especially so if we can recover that on Sissoko.

What we absolutely can't afford to do is take a £30m bath on Sissoko followed by a £40m one the year after with Barkley. Our financial system doesn't allow larger scale mistakes, we have to see the value buys in the market and increase their worth to us as a team or value to us as a business. Every now and then wecan take a larger punt, but most of our success has come from the other end of the market.

 

[Pirate55]

As I said pages ago in this thread, £20-25m max is a good buy. Especially so if we can recover that on Sissoko.

What we absolutely can't afford to do is take a £30m bath on Sissoko followed by a £40m one the year after with Barkley. Our financial system doesn't allow larger scale mistakes, we have to see the value buys in the market and increase their worth to us as a team or value to us as a business. Every now and then wecan take a larger punt, but most of our success has come from the other end of the market.

Then let's wait and see what happens. Still surprised you want to buy a player with as many flaws as you claim Barkley has - especially for a not inconsiderable 20-25m.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As I said pages ago in this thread, £20-25m max is a good buy. Especially so if we can recover that on Sissoko.

What we absolutely can't afford to do is take a £30m bath on Sissoko followed by a £40m one the year after with Barkley. Our financial system doesn't allow larger scale mistakes, we have to see the value buys in the market and increase their worth to us as a team or value to us as a business. Every now and then wecan take a larger punt, but most of our success has come from the other end of the market.

In all honesty I would be amazed if we went higher than £30m. Stunned.

Id be surprised at that high, but it is at least believable. £25m is the more likely balance we will aim for, IMO.

Any more than £30m and we'll look elsewhere or wait for him to run his contract down - I dont think Levy could ever stomach paying that much for a player like Barlkey/in arlkeys position.

 

[scaramanga]

Then let's wait and see what happens. Still surprised you want to buy a player with as many flaws as you claim Barkley has - especially for a not inconsiderable 20-25m.

We'd get our money back in a year if he can't improve for that.

There will always be a West Ham or a Bournemouth willing to spend £25m on an England international, no matter what happens with us. If he comes here for £40m and doesn't improve, then we don't have a hope of seeing that money again.

 

[billyiddo]

We'd get our money back in a year if he can't improve for that.

There will always be a West Ham or a Bournemouth willing to spend £25m on an England international, no matter what happens with us. If he comes here for £40m and doesn't improve, then we don't have a hope of seeing that money again.

so a 15m punt then if we can expect to get 25 back on him if he doesnt work out? if he provides a couple of years of able back up (which his current level would essentially provide) then im not sure that'd be much of a disaster - even then i dont see us spending 40m outright on him

 

[Finney Is Back]

Barkley at his current level would be good for us as we were under Jol. We've moved on a long way from there, Barkley would have to go a long way to be challenging any of our first team for a start.

I don't think you're able to say that it isn't difficult to train intelligence into a player - all players are different. The world of football is littered with players that had a lot of good physical attributes but never made that final step in the head. Barkley has shown signs of having good vision, he's also shown plenty of signs of being a player who keeps his head down and runs into trouble. Or a player that takes on loads of opponents but not to the benefit of the team. He's also shown little aptitude for chasing the ball, something I know Everton fans get irritated with.

I'd imagine Poch would love to have a go at teaching Barkley, all I want is that we consider the risk that he's at his mental limit before pricing him.

As I said previously, I think you should place less of an emphasis on the 'mental limit' thing. Poch's system is actually a pretty easy one to grasp. You can see that we have a pretty basic pattern of play to get the ball forward and we only tend to attempt risky things in specific areas of the pitch. I think that any player can grasp the basics of Pochettino's pattern of play.

I agree that the chasing the ball piece could be a concern. However, we do not know his specific instructions at Everton. It may be that his coaches have instructed him not to do this and instead to remain in space so that he can be given the ball if Everton overturn possession? I would say that Barkley's desire to join Spurs would indicate that he is prepared to put the work in. Pochettino's penchant to work the players hard, get them fit and demand full commitment to the game plan on the pitch is well publicised and I'm sure has been communicated to him by our England players. The fact that we are the club that he wants to join the most is surely a sign that he isn't afraid of hard work and has no problem in fitting in with Poch's high expectations.

 

[Lugash]

I was thinking longer term for the most part. Dembele is getting near the dreaded 30 mark, and has persistent injury problems. He isnt IMO a player that will play at the top level well into his 30's so we need to plan succession.

That said, I actually could see Barkley being disciplined in a Pochettino side this season. Just as he showed a lot of discipline last season under Koeman.

I really must emphasise, it is so unfair to judge a young.developing player under management like Martinez. What players need at that stage is the opposite of what he offers!

Pochettino will have Barkley understanding his role, the team around him, and over time what to do and when. With Wanyama/Dier beside him, Eriksen and Alli in front of him, how could he go too far wrong? Much of what the player does on the ball and off the ball is dictated by his team mates in our set up.

I do agree with your assessment re. Dembele, but I just can't see Barkley filling that role.

Physically, sure, but in terms of that defensive mentality and ability, he just doesn't strike me as capable.

If anything, I'd think we'd want his driving from the more attacking positions, in a Frank Lampard type of role - knowing how to position yourself and use his natural shooting ability.

 

[scaramanga]

As I said previously, I think you place less of an emphasis on the 'mental limit' thing. Poch's system is actually a pretty easy one to grasp. You can see that we have a pretty basic pattern of play to get the ball forward and we only tend to attempt risky things in specific areas of the pitch. I think that any player can grasp the basics of Pochettino's pattern of play.

I agree that the chasing the ball piece could be a concern. However, we do not know his specific instructions at Everton. It may be that his coaches have instructed him not to do this and instead to remain in space so that he can be given the ball if Everton overturn possession? I would say that Barkley's desire to join Spurs would indicate that he is prepared to put the work in. Pochettino's penchant to work the players hard, get them fit and demand full commitment to the game plan on the pitch is well publicised and I'm sure has been communicated to him by our England players. The fact that we are the club that he wants to join the most is surely a sign that he isn't afraid of hard work and has no problem in fitting in with Poch's high expectations.

If he's to replace Dembele then he needs to have a bit more about him. He needs to read a match, control the pace, move the play in the best direction. It's not always about hitting the killer through ball the moment you receive it.

I wonder is Barkley would be happy to spend a season on the bench if he came here. Even if he does fix the issues in his game, I think the gap between him and Dembele will be marginal and he'll always be behind Alli and Eriksen. If he waits and learns he could be the longer term replacement for Dembele but I think he's got a couple of years left in him yet.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I do agree with your assessment re. Dembele, but I just can't see Barkley filling that role.

Physically, sure, but in terms of that defensive mentality and ability, he just doesn't strike me as capable.

If anything, I'd think we'd want his driving from the more attacking positions, in a Frank Lampard type of role - knowing how to position yourself and use his natural shooting ability.

Thats fair enough, and only time will tell.

The only rebuttal Id offer is the comment further up (apologies, forget the author. [EDIT: @the dza , credit where its due!]) that points out - where was Demeble at 23? Were there any signs he would grow into this player?

In some ways he was similar to Barkley, played in attack but never especially productive, clear ability but lacking focus/a defined role, over played a lot, held the ball to much, didnt do the simple things...

 

[the dza]

No he wasn't. That's why he had the choice of Fulham or Birmingham as transfer destinations.

Agreed, but as we have seen subsequently, the player was in there. If Poch wants Barkley, he must see the player in there for the role he wants him to perform.

I also agree with you that the price we pay is important, overspending on him means less money to spend elsewhere -- the £30m we dropped on Sissoko could have gone to much better use as an example.

I don't think we will overpay though. I said earlier that in my opinion, we want to sign him but we are not desperate to sign him. In the end, Everton will have to accept a reasonable offer (in my opinion, in this market, between £25m-£30m) or risk losing him for nothing.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I've seen lots of people say he's a dembele replacement/cover and will play CM. I haven't seen a massive amount of Barkley, but I've never seen him play anything other than AM? Am I missing something here, he in no way looks like a CM in our system, for me anyway.