Ross Barkley

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Also on price, while I can obviously opine about whether or not I think its "worth" it to pay X for a player, it means little.

In the grander context, we have Levy in charge, which means the price is never going to threaten the club in anyway, which means, really, its means little as well.

Of course, the arguments of "but we could have done X + Y instead of Z..." will rage on, but its all just talk.

So, honestly, if a deal is done I dont worry about the money.

 

[harr1984]

No, it IS up to the club to value the player, not you, not me, not Danny Rose. DL together with Poch and the management team decide on a player's value - to Spurs. At this moment in time, we have no idea what that price is. So your argument is totally premature at best.

You have said he could be a very good player. That's the fundamental point. Everything else is for the club, not you, to decide.

Exactly. We seldom sign players who are the finished article, we dont have the money to do that at the level we require. Therefore we have to purchase players with the potential to get better and perform at a very good level. They will undoubtedly have their flaws which is where Poch will come in and note such flaws and believe he can coach him to improve and iron out such flaws. Barkley fits into this category, undoubted talent on the ball - maybe consistency needs to be added, mental focus, these are things I have no doubt Poch can improve and why he would be interested....

 

[Ade's folks are ok really]

I still can't see where Ross fits into the team. I have no problem with us strengthening "the squad", that's what we need after all. The first 11 is more than capable.

But where would he fit? For me, it's either when Alli is rested/suspended (CL). Or likewise for Dembele, though that potentially stifles Winks development.

Barkley is a very good prospect, but he is going to have to be patient as unlike Lacazette / Walker / Lukaku / Salah, he doesn't walk straight into the first team.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

And thats the point, I think.

We finished with arguably the best 11 last season. We dont NEED to buy anyone for the team right now.

We lacked depth, of course, and the best type of depth is that which pushes to play. However, should we buy Barkley (or anyone), he (they) gets time to settle, learn the ropes and acclimate before making that push, because the team as it stands is perfectly good enough to play the early part of the season.

Its when the cups/CL come in and we need to start rotating more that these players will be required. At which point there will be plenty of games to go around.

Barkley specifically covers/competes with Dembele IMO. Which is great news given Dembeles likelihood of picking up a niggle/injury. He is undroppable at the minute, if we have genuine cover to him we might actually be able to avoid him being unavaiable for selection as much as he is.

 

[billyiddo]

And thats the point, I think.

We finished with arguably the best 11 last season. We dont NEED to buy anyone for the team right now.

We lacked depth, of course, and the best type of depth is that which pushes to play. However, should we buy Barkley (or anyone), he (they) gets time to settle, learn the ropes and acclimate before making that push, because the team as it stands is perfectly good enough to play the early part of the season.

Its when the cups/CL come in and we need to start rotating more that these players will be required. At which point there will be plenty of games to go around.

Barkley specifically covers/competes with Dembele IMO. Which is great news given Dembeles likelihood of picking up a niggle/injury. He is undroppable at the minute, if we have genuine cover to him we might actually be able to avoid him being unavaiable for selection as much as he is.

i think he'd be cover for both CM (Dembele) and AM (Eriksen) in the 3421 and also as an option for the 3rd AM position in the 4231 (competing with Lamela and Son) - however would he be cutting off the progress of Winks at CM, who presumably atm is first in line for the Dembele spot?

oh and welcome back!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Cheers!

Honestly you just cant say. Who knows how injuries and form and development will play out?

Winks is excellent, Im a huge fan, though if Im honest of the two I can see Winks being more "Eriksen" than Barkley.

I think Barkley is built for Dembeles role, and I dont see why, with the other options we have, Pochettino would play him in an AM role (although, of course, Barkley is capable - so it could be an option in a pinch).

Either way, we are set for 60 odd games, periods of a game every other day, and we need a squad to cope.

I think there will be opportunity for all.

 

[Lugash]

And thats the point, I think.

We finished with arguably the best 11 last season. We dont NEED to buy anyone for the team right now.

We lacked depth, of course, and the best type of depth is that which pushes to play. However, should we buy Barkley (or anyone), he (they) gets time to settle, learn the ropes and acclimate before making that push, because the team as it stands is perfectly good enough to play the early part of the season.

Its when the cups/CL come in and we need to start rotating more that these players will be required. At which point there will be plenty of games to go around.

Barkley specifically covers/competes with Dembele IMO. Which is great news given Dembeles likelihood of picking up a niggle/injury. He is undroppable at the minute, if we have genuine cover to him we might actually be able to avoid him being unavaiable for selection as much as he is.

I agree with everything, except for Barkley specifically competing/covers with Dembele.

To me, Dembele lacks enterprise, whereas Barkley lacks discipline.

I can't see him sitting in that midfield, holding shape, putting in challenges, making some space and moving the ball sensibly, like Dembele can.

Should Dembele get injured now, would you be confident of Barkley stepping in, or do you mean long term?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I was thinking longer term for the most part. Dembele is getting near the dreaded 30 mark, and has persistent injury problems. He isnt IMO a player that will play at the top level well into his 30's so we need to plan succession.

That said, I actually could see Barkley being disciplined in a Pochettino side this season. Just as he showed a lot of discipline last season under Koeman.

I really must emphasise, it is so unfair to judge a young.developing player under management like Martinez. What players need at that stage is the opposite of what he offers!

Pochettino will have Barkley understanding his role, the team around him, and over time what to do and when. With Wanyama/Dier beside him, Eriksen and Alli in front of him, how could he go too far wrong? Much of what the player does on the ball and off the ball is dictated by his team mates in our set up.

 

[DeleHarry]

I agree with everything, except for Barkley specifically competing/covers with Dembele.

To me, Dembele lacks enterprise, whereas Barkley lacks discipline.

I can't see him sitting in that midfield, holding shape, putting in challenges, making some space and moving the ball sensibly, like Dembele can.

Should Dembele get injured now, would you be confident of Barkley stepping in, or do you mean long term?

correct

 

[StephenH]

correct

Which ones Dembele to hammer or the nail?

 

[elltrev]

correct

Agreed, I find all the comments about Barkley as a Dembele replacement weird. Has he ever played in a two-man central midfield? He averages about 1 tackle a game. And unlike Dembele, he actually has a decent end product.

And as people have alluded to, we have Winks and Onomah as 2 promising CM prospects.

Just don't get the Barkley-Dembele comments at all, except they're both strong and can dribble.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

As evidenced throughout this thread, Barkley really doesnt stack up to top players in an attacking a capacity.

Its because he isnt a #10, but gets played there.

His abilities lay more in getting the ball forward than in being forward. His passing and dribbling would give us a similar result to Dembeles.

IE, retaining possession and then getting the ball from midfield through the lines to our attacking players.

He averages few tackles because of the position and system he plays in. They push him further forward, and largely counter attack - he isnt going to tackle much from there is he?

All his attributes point to him being a CM/Box to box IMHO, and possibly a very good one at that.

Being, specifically, able to cover Dembele is HUGE. Dembele is the key to our side, and is such a rare presence it is incredibly difficult to replace him.

I really think Barkley is being viewed through that lens.

 

[elltrev]

As evidenced throughout this thread, Barkley really doesnt stack up to top players in an attacking a capacity.

Its because he isnt a #10, but gets played there.

His abilities lay more in getting the ball forward than in being forward. His passing and dribbling would give us a similar result to Dembeles.

IE, retaining possession and then getting the ball from midfield through the lines to our attacking players.

He averages few tackles because of the position and system he plays in. They push him further forward, and largely counter attack - he isnt going to tackle much from there is he?

All his attributes point to him being a CM/Box to box IMHO, and possibly a very good one at that.

Being, specifically, able to cover Dembele is HUGE. Dembele is the key to our side, and is such a rare presence it is incredibly difficult to replace him.

I really think Barkley is being viewed through that lens.

Fair enough then, but what about Winks and Onomah? Maybe Poch just doesn't rate Onomah, and sees us selling Dembele next year? Or doesn't think Winks will make it either?

 

[scaramanga]

plays a bit further forward at Everton and I'm not sure that has been a major part of the role. Takes the wrong option on occasions, but not more often than not (as his chance creation numbers show). Clearly has a lot to work with, not the finished article but does have a chance of being a Dembele clone (although I would argue one with better vision and the ability to chip in with more goals)

Last season he played in the Dembele role for roughly the first half of the season when they played 4231 or 343, then he played the Alli role when they switched to 433.

So if we're being generous we should compare his workrate to that of Alli and it doesn't stand up. At worst it should be likened to Dembele and he's a very long way from that.

I also think his future lies more as a Dembele than an Alli, but he's going to need to change a lot about how he plays to do so.

 

[scaramanga]

No, it IS up to the club to value the player, not you, not me, not Danny Rose. DL together with Poch and the management team decide on a player's value - to Spurs. At this moment in time, we have no idea what that price is. So your argument is totally premature at best.

You have said he could be a very good player. That's the fundamental point. Everything else is for the club, not you, to decide.

So we can't discuss the value of the player?

So he's a good buy whether we spend £10m or £100m?

Your logic, as usual, is not particularly solid.

 

[billyiddo]

You can't really compare across teams like that, especially when the styles of play are so different, regardless of formation.

The attacking/creative players at Everton will have less defensive responsibility than their equivalents at Spurs - looking at tackles made/interceptions really is an unfair comparison because of that

 

[scaramanga]

Some players are just smarter about being dim. But eventually you realise most footballers are quite dim in general as the truth usually comes out ... ala step forward Danny rose.

However i think its better to be slightly dim as a footballer as you just do as your told and that's it. Don't think just follow what we have gone through.

I think in the centre of midfield, players need more about them mentally. They need good vision and anticipation - most of all they need to make good decisions.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Fair enough then, but what about Winks and Onomah? Maybe Poch just doesn't rate Onomah, and sees us selling Dembele next year? Or doesn't think Winks will make it either?

Honestly, and completely personal opinion here, I think Onomah has the talent but not the mentality. I think Pochettino's comments re the loan reveal this "He can play as an 8, a 6, a 7 or 10 or 11, I think that is not the problem. He needs to prove himself that he can play".

If I had to guess Is say Onomah wont be with us for long, rather he will be another success story for our academy in that we produced yet another premier league player, even though he doesnt make it with us. That said, if Villa is the thing that matures him and brings him confidence, and he comes back to us ready to make an impact? Well thats just brilliant, and very much one of those "nice problems to have" managers enjoy so much. It could only be good. Id love it.

Winks I think will evolve more into an Eriksen than a Dembele, so there isnt much overlap there.

Either way, we dont have or need just 11 players. We are looking at 60+ games this season, there is plenty of time for everyone to play and to stake a claim on a regular spot.

 

[scaramanga]

I think your first sentence is a stretch of the truth; Barkley is (or at least was until making clear he was leaving) a first choice starter for the 7th best team in England and not only that but a player considered to be one of their best 2 or 3 players. He is already a good player. The potential he has is to become a great player.

I think you over state and over value the 'mental' deficiency. It really isn't difficult to fix, especially in a player who does make excellent passes more than half of the time and completes his attempted dribbles more than half of the time. IMO it is just a simple matter of attempting things in the right areas of the pitch.

I would imagine that Poch would love to get his coaching hands on Barkley as he naturally has all of those attributes that Poch cannot teach and lacks only the things that Poch is able to teach.

Barkley at his current level would be good for us as we were under Jol. We've moved on a long way from there, Barkley would have to go a long way to be challenging any of our first team for a start.

I don't think you're able to say that it isn't difficult to train intelligence into a player - all players are different. The world of football is littered with players that had a lot of good physical attributes but never made that final step in the head. Barkley has shown signs of having good vision, he's also shown plenty of signs of being a player who keeps his head down and runs into trouble. Or a player that takes on loads of opponents but not to the benefit of the team. He's also shown little aptitude for chasing the ball, something I know Everton fans get irritated with.

I'd imagine Poch would love to have a go at teaching Barkley, all I want is that we consider the risk that he's at his mental limit before pricing him.

 

[the dza]

When he was 23, was Dembele doing what Dembele does now? He was playing further forward earlier in his career, so I am guessing he wasn't as good defensively at that point. He has evolved as a player over the course of his career, perhaps Poch sees some similar raw attributes and talent to work with re. Barkley. He is strong, he can dribble, he can create and pass. He could play well for us behind Kane or potentially deeper. I think Poch would shape him into a very effective player and he'd also benefit from playing alongside much better players than he has previously.