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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Rorschach said:
Why? Well take your pick - >https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Cognitive_bias_codex_en.svg Backfire effect explains some of it. And of course there are vested interests that stand to gain from the UK's exit from the EU - hedge fund guys, Russia, Farage, the US, Mogg, anarcho-capitalists, Scara, ethno-nationalists, Northern Ireland (bizarrely if Boris 'fantastic' deal is enacted), etc.
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But your average Jo. People who pay taxes or use the NHS, we lose. The UK will have less jobs, less wealth to go round - fund schools etc. Careful what you vote for. Get "it" done. It being a degrade of our nation.
 
SpurMeUp said:
But your average Jo. People who pay taxes or use the NHS, we lose. The UK will have less jobs, less wealth to go round - fund schools etc. Careful what you vote for. Get "it" done. It being a degrade of our nation.
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Get it done is the biggest lie of the lot. Years and years of trade negotiations is the future if Boris get's it done. If there is no extension to the transition period then the UK will have no trade agreement with the EU. Negotiating one by July is an impossibility.
 
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Rorschach said:
Get it done is the biggest lie of the lot. Years and years of trade negotiations is the future if Boris get's it done. If there is no extension to the transition period then the UK will have no trade agreement with the EU. Negotiation one by July is an impossibility.
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Brexit remains the victory of simple lies over complex truth.

We'll never know quite how much Russia played in Trump and Brexit. A few things for sure - if you want to hide money in shell companies and pay people off you can. It will be untraceable. Russia has been keen to disrupt the EU and USA. Aaron Banks hasn't made nearly enough money to fund Brexit and be the nation's largest-ever political donor from his legit insurance businesses. He has however, a documented history of involvement with Russian high officials, gifts of gold mine shares from Russia, and he is married to a former Russian spy.
 
How lightweight is Javid, refuses a debate with McDonnell for some reason. Shouldn't be too hard to win that but then again he is one of the most wooden politicians I've seen in a long long time. All he trots out is Labour spending lots but gives no details of why it could be bad. Surely anyone with logic would cite things like massive inflation, run on the pound, pension schemes losing money when businesses are nationalised and shares gives to workers, massive debt repayments in future years etc but it's the same dull monotomous lines.
 
SpurMeUp said:
My bad Brexit is not causing this uncertainty? Brexit could make the UK permanently unattractive to such investment. Brexit will impair free trade with the EU - the main market for Tesla. Brexit is the issue whichever way you wish to slice it.

Back in 2016 Musk had already picked the UK. Brexit has stopped him investing in the UK despite him wanting to. What a joke. Brexit delivers the UK abstract, hard to identify 'benefits' but costs the nation clear things like state of the art investment into electric vehicles. Germany wins, the UK loses.

Musk in 2016:
“We are likely to establish a Tesla engineering group in Britain at some point in the future.
Just look at Formula 1 - it amazes me how much British talent there is in that. "
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Uncertainty due to Brexit being a bad thing is not the same as Brexit being a bad thing.

Let's not forget that there would be a lot less uncertainty if those hell bent on ignoring the will of the people had just kept their treacherous gobs shut.
 
scaramanga said:
We have to accept it when they're stupid enough to vote Labour, you have to accept it when they vote for something you don't like.
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I'm sticking with turkeys voting for Christmas analogy.
Nothing wrong with leaving the EU.
Just the cretins who thought this method up are banal.
Boris I must admit is the aptest cheerleader for it.
 
scaramanga said:
Uncertainty due to Brexit being a bad thing is not the same as Brexit being a bad thing.

Let's not forget that there would be a lot less uncertainty if those hell bent on ignoring the will of the people had just kept their treacherous gobs shut.
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There are many significant obstacles to Brexit regardless of opposition to it. Irish peace and a new customs border, Scotland splitting from the UK, getting a trade arrangement with the EU and other nations and typical time they involve - years. None of these things are created by opposition to brexit are they? They are intrinsic issues. Another intrinsic issue is wanting to leave the EU while wanting to have free trade access to it. The EU is at heart a customs union or free trade area. How contradictory then to want free trade with it, but want to be outside it.

We were told it would all be easy. Those who lied about this pre-vote, or were incompetent, still maintain brexit is worthwhile. It isn't. It adds almost nothing but loses a lot. Am I making this up? No. If I were you'd hit me with a barrage of positives that will result from Brexit. But you can't.

How can the UK maintain current free trade on things like cars to allow companies like Tesla to invest in the UK? Or for the UK to keep the 250,000+ existing skilled car-worker jobs....while also making our own trade deals, and outside the EUs standards jurisdiction? This cake and eat it scenario is clearly impossible. It is so obviously flawed.

Take a few steps forward. When Boris has to choose between an EU trade deal and UK jobs, we will get BINO. But not before lots of threats of No Deal. That means uncertainty for years longer. Then when we do get a trade deal with the EU it will not be as free as now, we won't control regulations as we do now, and we'll need to go and get 70 other free trade agreements that we utilise now. It is a 5-10 years of uncertainty that we face, therefore. There will be collateral damage. Tesla not investing. Car worker jobs leaving. City jobs reducing as the EU tightens up to ensure more move into the EU. And what do we get back? Nothing of real value.

It is so obviously not in the UKs interests. How could you and others so willfully damage the nation?
 
SpurMeUp said:
There are many significant obstacles to Brexit regardless of opposition to it. Irish peace and a new customs border, Scotland splitting from the UK, getting a trade arrangement with the EU and other nations and typical time they involve - years. None of these things are created by opposition to brexit are they? They are intrinsic issues. Another intrinsic issue is wanting to leave the EU while wanting to have free trade access to it. The EU is at heart a customs union or free trade area. How contradictory then to want free trade with it, but want to be outside it.

We were told it would all be easy. Those who lied about this pre-vote, or were incompetent, still maintain brexit is worthwhile. It isn't. It adds almost nothing but loses a lot. Am I making this up? No. If I were you'd hit me with a barrage of positives that will result from Brexit. But you can't.

How can the UK maintain current free trade on things like cars to allow companies like Tesla to invest in the UK? Or for the UK to keep the 250,000+ existing skilled car-worker jobs....while also making our own trade deals, and outside the EUs standards jurisdiction? This cake and eat it scenario is clearly impossible. It is so obviously flawed.

Take a few steps forward. When Boris has to choose between an EU trade deal and UK jobs, we will get BINO. But not before lots of threats of No Deal. That means uncertainty for years longer. Then when we do get a trade deal with the EU it will not be as free as now, we won't control regulations as we do now, and we'll need to go and get 70 other free trade agreements that we utilise now. It is a 5-10 years of uncertainty that we face, therefore. There will be collateral damage. Tesla not investing. Car worker jobs leaving. City jobs reducing as the EU tightens up to ensure more move into the EU. And what do we get back? Nothing of real value.

It is so obviously not in the UKs interests. How could you and others so willfully damage the nation?
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Because, as someone who has to run a business and employ people, create wealth, etc. the benefits are huge.
 
scaramanga said:
Because, as someone who has to run a business and employ people, create wealth, etc. the benefits are huge.
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Yet you find it hard to quickly name these benefits. Why is that?

Are brexit benefits only for those who run businesses? I have a number of businesses, enlighten me, how will brexit benefit UK businesses? Presumably, you are not in the car business, where brexit is a clear and obvious negative. I struggle to think of one business model that will reap the benefits of brexit.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yet you find it hard to quickly name these benefits. Why is that?

Are brexit benefits only for those who run businesses? I have a number of businesses, enlighten me, how will brexit benefit UK businesses? Presumably, you are not in the car business, where brexit is a clear and obvious negative. I struggle to think of one business model that will reap the benefits of brexit.
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I've made them clear a number of times in this thread. As always, you choose to ignore the arguments that don't fit your echo chamber.
 
P.D. said:
How lightweight is Javid, refuses a debate with McDonnell for some reason. Shouldn't be too hard to win that but then again he is one of the most wooden politicians I've seen in a long long time. All he trots out is Labour spending lots but gives no details of why it could be bad. Surely anyone with logic would cite things like massive inflation, run on the pound, pension schemes losing money when businesses are nationalised and shares gives to workers, massive debt repayments in future years etc but it's the same dull monotomous lines.
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Let's be honest, he isn't where he is on talent.
Probably why he isn't held up as a shining beacon of BAME success
 
scaramanga said:
I've made them clear a number of times in this thread. As always, you choose to ignore the arguments that don't fit your echo chamber.
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You have time to respond, yet can not simply outline the benefits of brexit. And you are not unique in this. Others can not either. The 'best' we have is lowering workers' rights to make businesses more profitable. Being a little more agile on international trade deals (but we lose clout and strength for having a fraction of the EUs population/market). Controlling EU migration is not in business interests. Nor is it in racists interests as we get more immigrants from further afield rather than the EU. So what does that leave us with?

Well lots of economic losses like Tesla going to Germany instead of the UK. A reduction in the UKs international influence and standing. And a poorer UK.
 
Saw some toffee nosed Tory bint on TV berating Labour's spending plans, but refusing to release costings of the Conservatives policies. Tried to tot up every Labour speaking point, committee recommendation and branch suggestion into a grand spending total. Ha, ha. No concession that the tax cuts they are running with are going to have a huge impact on the bottom line. fudging hypocrites!
 
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