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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

thfcsteff said:
This is true and furthermore, our poor FBs are helping this problem (explained from my perspective in another post).

I will say that the final 15 mins saw some good stuff start to happen IMO. And I thought Winks had a good half!
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our ongoing downward spiral as some would have it came when we started selling our FBs

walker was such a loss
 
Raziel said:
Unfortunately time to call it a day was some time ago ..
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I gave him till the second international break!
Here we are!
Very sad, but I think we have been patient enough.

PS Levy has my sympathies with finding a way forward! But we can’t hang on for fear of the unknown!
 
Pochettino the ‘preferred solution’ for European giants, says reliable journalist
By Steve Jennings -
November 11, 2019

Tottenham manager Mauricio Pochettino is Bayern Munich’s main target to take over from Niko Kovac, according to the Athletic.

Kovac, who led Bayern to a 7-2 victory over Spurs in the Champions League just last month, was sacked a little over a week ago following a 5-1 defeat to his former club Freiburg in the Bundesliga.

Meanwhile, Pochettino’s position at Tottenham is under increasing scrutiny because of results like the record defeat to Bayern and yet more dropped points against Sheffield United in the Premier League this weekend.

For some time there has been a feeling Pochettino’s stay in north London is coming to an end. Whether that will be in the near future or at the end of the season remains to be seen. Of course, there is still a chance he will turn the present situation around and stay for much longer.

But the Athletic’s ever-reliable David Ornstein claims Pochettino will be wanted by a host of clubs if he leaves Spurs, and Bayern are said to be especially keen. The German giants apparently see Pochettino as the “preferred solution” to their current predicament.

Real Madrid and Manchester United are also mentioned as possible destinations for the Argentinian. Only time will tell what happens next.

http://www.tottenhamblog.com/2019/1...for-european-giants-says-reliable-journalist/
 
You do have to wonder if there is more to the downturn in form. I think we can clearly see Poch is trying to change the way we play, gone is the high press etc which brought us some success but without silverware. Assuming this is the case, could it not be more that the players themselves are struggling with this transition, working under one system for 5 years and then moving to a different way of working cant be easy and is bound to lead to poor results and a lack of cohesion until its fully embedded. I think many have said, we have also worked with Eriksen as the main guy with peoples movement around giving him space to open up teams and to be the creative outlet, this obviously had to change and the fact we haven't looked for that type of player, but rather a more dynamic player with creativity spread.
Ultimately, there is a lot of work to do, there are clear gaps that need addressing which is impossible to do in one transfer window unless we settle for players rather then taking the right player. There are also things i dont like with the change, such as Son playing ahead of Kane - while Kane maybe trying to develop his game, it cant be at the expense of his goal scoring and general movement in the box. Still providing we are not getting relegated i am happy to Poch one season to embed whatever this new philosophy is, to see if it can take us up a level and if it means i have to put up with a season not as good as the previous ones so be it, he has earned that right by punching above our weight for so many season successfully.

I am interested to see what happens in Jan, as i think full backs and possibly another CB is key right now and addressing those gaps (maybe even a Dybala or Fernandes if they are available) may tell us more about what the actual plan is.

Short/Short version: We are changing systems/play styles - this takes time and patience is needed for this to happen and to bring in the right people to make it work.
 
demotw said:
You do have to wonder if there is more to the downturn in form. I think we can clearly see Poch is trying to change the way we play, gone is the high press etc which bought us some success but without silverware. Assuming this is the case, could it not be more that the players themselves are struggling with this transition, working under one system for 5 years and then moving to a different way of working cant be easy and is bound to lead to poor results and a lack of cohesion until its fully embedded. I think many have said, we have also worked with Eriksen as the main guy with peoples movement around giving him space to open up teams and to be the creative outlet, this obviously had to change and the fact we haven't looked for that type of player, but rather a more dynamic player with creativity spread.
Ultimately, there is a lot of work to do, there are clear gaps that need addressing which is impossible to do in one transfer window unless we settle for players rather then taking the right player. There are also things i dont like with the change, such as Son playing ahead of Kane - while Kane maybe trying to develop his game, it cant be at the expense of his goal scoring and general movement in the box. Still providing we are not getting relegated i am happy to Poch one season to embed whatever this new philosophy is, to see if it can take us up a level and if it means i have to put up with a season not as good as the previous ones so be it, he has earned that right by punching above our weight for so many season successfully.

I am interested to see what happens in Jan, as i think full backs and possibly another CB is key right now and addressing those gaps (maybe even a Dybala or Fernandes if they are available) may tell us more about what the actual plan is.

Short/Short version: We are changing systems/play styles - this takes time and patience is needed for this to happen and to bring in the right people to make it work.
Click to expand...

- The players/squad needing a refresh is a just a lazy answer for people who want easy answers (it is only a partial answer)

I suspect we will never know what went wrong completely

- Was it the failure to replace Walker? failure to move on Toby/Eriksen? Poch's I'll quit if I win CL and lack of outright commitment? players tired of same old same old training after 5 years? bricky tactics and selection? bad luck with injuries and form? Probably all of the above plus some we don't know about.

But my big issue is with two things

- Poch has no "right" nor does he "deserve" us sacrificing any more than we already have to give him a "chance" to turn it around. The monetary, PR and other costs are simply too high.
- People think buying a CB. FB, DM will solve this? when/how? first of all the assumption would be all the new players we buy would work out (Poch's record in that category is pretty brick), and that Poch would change his flimflam it takes 2 years to settle players in (are we ok if we simply avoid relegation for 2 years?). And the longer the form goes on, the more the good players will want out, vicious circle.
 
Raz, to your points:
- Not saying squad needs a refresh, but when you play one way for a long time then asked to play a completely different way, to attack and defend in different ways then that transition is not simple, not everyone will be able to adapt which will require a change in personnel
- Replacing players was limited with the stadium build, that was obvious and i personally hate buying bargin players for the sake of buying someone (Rasiak?) I do agree on the Poch comments completely however.

We agree to disagree on the right to turn things around, i think anyone who has over achieved for such a long time is allowed a season where it doesnt meet their previous high standards. I do caveat that however, that some progression needs to be demonstrated over the season.
as for buying FB, CB those are the obvious gaps right now both in terms of who is leaving at the end of the season and who is non effective currently.
 
demotw said:
Raz, to your points:
- Not saying squad needs a refresh, but when you play one way for a long time then asked to play a completely different way, to attack and defend in different ways then that transition is not simple, not everyone will be able to adapt which will require a change in personnel
- Replacing players was limited with the stadium build, that was obvious and i personally hate buying bargin players for the sake of buying someone (Rasiak?) I do agree on the Poch comments completely however.

We agree to disagree on the right to turn things around, i think anyone who has over achieved for such a long time is allowed a season where it doesnt meet their previous high standards. I do caveat that however, that some progression needs to be demonstrated over the season.
as for buying FB, CB those are the obvious gaps right now both in terms of who is leaving at the end of the season and who is non effective currently.
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Mate, don't disagree we need those positions or that there were circumstances that have contributed ..

The problem is what a few have pointed out for some time, when managers go into these spirals, they never seem to come out of it and we are pretty far down the rabbit hole at this point.

Leicester appointing Rodgers is an interesting view of the upside (how much did he change the squad?) and he isn't the biggest name or most proven manager that would come to mind.
 
Raziel said:
Mate, don't disagree we need those positions or that there were circumstances that have contributed ..

The problem is what a few have pointed out for some time, when managers go into these spirals, they never seem to come out of it and we are pretty far down the rabbit hole at this point.

Leicester appointing Rodgers is an interesting view of the upside (how much did he change the squad?) and he isn't the biggest name or most proven manager that would come to mind.
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the team he plays now is very different
But he didn’t change the squad much
He has changed tactics 4-1-4-1, and he has sold a BIG player to reinvest
He also had no summer tour and spent the whole time with the players working through fitness and tactics
That’s pretty smart
 
Are we really going to use Evans finally having a good season at 31 as anything other than it's long over due.
Let's face it
Raziel said:
Mate, don't disagree we need those positions or that there were circumstances that have contributed ..

The problem is what a few have pointed out for some time, when managers go into these spirals, they never seem to come out of it and we are pretty far down the rabbit hole at this point.

Leicester appointing Rodgers is an interesting view of the upside (how much did he change the squad?) and he isn't the biggest name or most proven manager that would come to mind.
Click to expand...

Leicester is indeed an interesting example, how long ago did they sack their title winning manager and how many managers have they had between then now?

So it's not as easy as sack the manager and watch us rise.
 
demotw said:
You do have to wonder if there is more to the downturn in form. I think we can clearly see Poch is trying to change the way we play, gone is the high press etc which bought us some success but without silverware. Assuming this is the case, could it not be more that the players themselves are struggling with this transition, working under one system for 5 years and then moving to a different way of working cant be easy and is bound to lead to poor results and a lack of cohesion until its fully embedded. I think many have said, we have also worked with Eriksen as the main guy with peoples movement around giving him space to open up teams and to be the creative outlet, this obviously had to change and the fact we haven't looked for that type of player, but rather a more dynamic player with creativity spread.
Ultimately, there is a lot of work to do, there are clear gaps that need addressing which is impossible to do in one transfer window unless we settle for players rather then taking the right player. There are also things i dont like with the change, such as Son playing ahead of Kane - while Kane maybe trying to develop his game, it cant be at the expense of his goal scoring and general movement in the box. Still providing we are not getting relegated i am happy to Poch one season to embed whatever this new philosophy is, to see if it can take us up a level and if it means i have to put up with a season not as good as the previous ones so be it, he has earned that right by punching above our weight for so many season successfully.

I am interested to see what happens in Jan, as i think full backs and possibly another CB is key right now and addressing those gaps (maybe even a Dybala or Fernandes if they are available) may tell us more about what the actual plan is.

Short/Short version: We are changing systems/play styles - this takes time and patience is needed for this to happen and to bring in the right people to make it work.
Click to expand...

I think there could be a fair amount in this, and said as much after the Leicester and Arsenal games. It is not that pressing is inherently better than trying to hit teams from deep for example, but I do think it has been a tough transition for the players.

Reason being, you can see it in how we’ve given up leads by giving the ball away in stupid moments. It’s like half the players don’t know whether we are pushing forward, keeping the ball, clearing it to Row Z and subsequently which passes to take, which positions to take up etc. So I can see after 5 years of largely the same players, to have a different message is going to be an adjustment.

I think Poch is trying to get us to a point where we can be completely adaptable depending on situation and players available, so that we aren’t overly reliant on pressing 100% which may have a longer term detrimental effect on players as they age. When he talks about building something mid season I feel like this is what he’s referring to. As he says - time will tell whether they get to build what they want or not.
 
demotw said:
You do have to wonder if there is more to the downturn in form. I think we can clearly see Poch is trying to change the way we play, gone is the high press etc which bought us some success but without silverware. Assuming this is the case, could it not be more that the players themselves are struggling with this transition, working under one system for 5 years and then moving to a different way of working cant be easy and is bound to lead to poor results and a lack of cohesion until its fully embedded. I think many have said, we have also worked with Eriksen as the main guy with peoples movement around giving him space to open up teams and to be the creative outlet, this obviously had to change and the fact we haven't looked for that type of player, but rather a more dynamic player with creativity spread.
Ultimately, there is a lot of work to do, there are clear gaps that need addressing which is impossible to do in one transfer window unless we settle for players rather then taking the right player. There are also things i dont like with the change, such as Son playing ahead of Kane - while Kane maybe trying to develop his game, it cant be at the expense of his goal scoring and general movement in the box. Still providing we are not getting relegated i am happy to Poch one season to embed whatever this new philosophy is, to see if it can take us up a level and if it means i have to put up with a season not as good as the previous ones so be it, he has earned that right by punching above our weight for so many season successfully.

I am interested to see what happens in Jan, as i think full backs and possibly another CB is key right now and addressing those gaps (maybe even a Dybala or Fernandes if they are available) may tell us more about what the actual plan is.

Short/Short version: We are changing systems/play styles - this takes time and patience is needed for this to happen and to bring in the right people to make it work.
Click to expand...

If this is what's happening, I'm happy to give Poch the time to get it done. He's earned it in my view as long as he wants it.

My fear is that this isn't the case. Has any manager ever had such a downturn in form whilst doing this? Has any manager then managed to turn it around? I know Klopp had a terrible few months in his last season at Dortmund and got them back up the table but I don't recall that being a change in style. Also, we still look at our best when we are pressing hard.

I hope you're right, I really do. However, I fear there is something deeper and potentially irreversible at play here.
 
glasgowspur said:
What about the guy before puel?
So it's a three in one chance?
Not really the odds it's being portrayed as is it?
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Leicester are really not a fair example to be picking, them winning the league was frankly the biggest overachievement in the history of football, when they sacked Ranieri the next season they were back just about where they should have been based on that overall squad, since then they have swooped up some excellent young talent pretty much all of which was at Puel’s disposal and not their previous managers, Rodgers has gone there and got them playing on par, they are second in the league because basically every other team you would expect to be up there is underachieving/rebuilding or in City’s case defensive injury crisis.
 
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