Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[fernadez]

'It wasn't the diamond, when we abandoned it we still lost/played badly'

Is that really the counter argument being put forward? The players have been fudged over for a season now in a formation that's not worked and the one instance he changes it is proof that it wasn't the formation? That's a poor rebuttal.

It's not merely the shape, is that the shape caused fitness issues, form issues, confidence issues and so on. I'm not surprised in the performances post diamond, all trust in the manager tactfully has gone, then as a Hail Mary he tries to go back to what worked and should have been the default from day 1.

It'll take a lot more than that to win back the players on side. Everyone states footballers are stupid, but when you've been coached you know if the person is doing their job or not. Poch can mess about for months then expects the players to bail him out when he needs it, doesn't work like that.

As for the Bayern game, it was clear to see that not only was the press sustainable. At the time I said it resembled a lower league team trying to give it their all and hope for the best.

As he always says, trust is everything.

 

[glasgowspur]

I suspect you are either mis reading me, or confusing me with someone else.

Ive been saying the whole time that Poch has dropped the ball, and is looking increasingly less like he will pick it up.

Ive been saying he is losing the players because of it.

And Ive said I think Bayern was the last straw. Since then I think they just arent playing for him.

They were clearly knackared in the Bayern game, and my only real mention of it was to counter Finneys insistence the diamond was working. How can it be a successful set up if its only good for maybe a half a match? Specific comment around a specific match/situation.

You are right, none of us know anything for sure. All we can do is look at the signs and form an opinion.

I think what I am saying tracks very well to what we are seeing.

And we do all want whats best for the club. Of course we do. I have a bad feeling about tonight - but if we absolutely smash RSB Im going to be over the moon. Id love to see Poch get right on it again, get everything working properly, and get this team playing to its potential.

The thing is, I dont look at the situation and forsee that. I think we are currently in the end game of POchs tenure, sadly. Time will tell on that one, obviously.

Kind of doesnt matter who is at fault, the situation as it is only really goes one way...

Although I'm replying and quoting you it's not directed at you, it's a general comment on those who are on the pexit (claiming TM on that) side.
The leavers have a shifting and varied list.
The remainers are clinging to one (desperate?) hope.
All seems familiar somehow, can't think why.

 

[afsoc4life]

I am beginning to think he should be much wiser with his words.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Although I'm replying and quoting you it's not directed at you, it's a general comment on those who are on the pexit (claiming TM on that) side.
The leavers have a shifting and varied list.
The remainers are clinging to one (desperate?) hope.
All seems familiar somehow, can't think why.

Might have made your point better were you not quoting someone!

I've been consistent in my view. And I'm not really "Poch out", more "I just think that's where it's going"

I've complaints with Poch, valid imo (of course), and things are at a point where I think his leaving is inevitable.

That's not to say I wouldn't love to see him pull it round

 

[glasgowspur]

Might have made your point better were you not quoting someone!

I've been consistent in my view. And I'm not really "Poch out", more "I just think that's where it's going"

I've complaints with Poch, valid imo (of course), and things are at a point where I think his leaving is inevitable.

That's not to say I wouldn't love to see him pull it round

I did swither with the 'you' in my original post, but I was at work and in a 'couldn't be arsed' kind of funk.

 

[thfcsteff]

Mate, seemingly we don't communicate well and you seem quite aggravated with me (the praise was legitimate, up to you how you want to take it), so maybe we just let it go.

I generally don't think I misunderstood you, it's more about how you apply principles

- But to be clear, your wife and your marriage are the same thing, one doesn't exist without the other, call it relationship goals, happiness, whatever one requires the other.
- There is no such link between Poch and Spurs, hence my call out, Poch goes tomorrow, Spurs remains ..
- And on top of that, you don't pay people in your life to participate, hence you owe them some empathy ..

but to separate the personal and use the professional example

- If I had a good boss who suddenly became poor, my response would depend on the impact he is having. If he was impacting my ability to make money, pay my bills, then yes I want him out (and I might still like him as a person)
- Poch is paid for results, he is not delivering and it's impacting the club, players and fans ..

You may choose to leave your life around less "goal oriented" objectives and if that works for you, well done. But fundamentally that is not how being the manager of a top 4 PL club with any level of ambition operates.

So again, no aggravation with you, no aggravation with Poch, just a very simple view that he is failing in a position that is measured by results and has no place for like/empathy/etc.[/QUOTE

.

You have defined our difference.
“In a position that has no place for empathy”...
There is a place for empathy in any situation, it is more about when the time for said-empathy is up.

That you equate money with empathy is incredible. That you seemingly believe the difference in whether someone is worthy of empathy or not is related to whether they make money/a lot of money or not blows my mind.

We are very, very different people.

With regards to marriage, of course my marriage cannot exist without my wife - we are married to each other. But my wife is not a “goal”...the relationship is.

We’d best leave this. I appreciate that you are looking to engage in a conversation here, again, appreciated. I feel I have learned why we have such differing views

 

[thfcsteff]

I think it is a fair enough metaphor though. At present we do not know if this is a 'bad patch' or a unrecoverable decline. I tend to agree with Steff that the credit Pochettino has in the bank probably makes it worth us being sure it is the latter rather than the former before we bring in somebody else who in all likelihood proably isn't likely to do better than Pochettino has.

Agreed.
When I was a young man, I got married. It lasted four years. It was clearly the wrong thing to have done for both of us, we evaluated over that final 12 months or so, parted ways/divorced and remain on decent terms. She remarried, I remarried, both of us remarried for over 20 years. Your point about “making sure” is nailed on, and if after careful evaluation it is time, then it is time.

 

[nayenezgani]

Mate, seemingly we don't communicate well and you seem quite aggravated with me (the praise was legitimate, up to you how you want to take it), so maybe we just let it go.

I generally don't think I misunderstood you, it's more about how you apply principles

- But to be clear, your wife and your marriage are the same thing, one doesn't exist without the other, call it relationship goals, happiness, whatever one requires the other.
- There is no such link between Poch and Spurs, hence my call out, Poch goes tomorrow, Spurs remains ..
- And on top of that, you don't pay people in your life to participate, hence you owe them some empathy ..

but to separate the personal and use the professional example

- If I had a good boss who suddenly became poor, my response would depend on the impact he is having. If he was impacting my ability to make money, pay my bills, then yes I want him out (and I might still like him as a person)
- Poch is paid for results, he is not delivering and it's impacting the club, players and fans ..

You may choose to leave your life around less "goal oriented" objectives and if that works for you, well done. But fundamentally that is not how being the manager of a top 4 PL club with any level of ambition operates.

So again, no aggravation with you, no aggravation with Poch, just a very simple view that he is failing in a position that is measured by results and has no place for like/empathy/etc.

If you can't back a manager that you like when results are tough, then what kind of fudging fan does that make you?

 

[Mikey10]

Our performance was better in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game than both the Brighton and Watford games. XG scores for all three games below (Spurs XG always first):
Saudi Sportswashing Machine: 1.26 – 0.51
Brighton: 0.48 – 2.6
Watford – 0.89 – 0.85

(The above also ignores the blatant penalty not awarded to us against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and the blatant one we should've conceded against Watford).

Didn’t feel like that sitting in the ground.

 

[Moby]

It’s ok he now uses their pets if pushed

Explains all that kerfuffle the other year about Lamelas dog...

 

[Robspur12]

I mean, it’s the flipping CL final mate! I think it’s fair enough to cite as an achievement a lot of us never thought we’d see in our lifetimes.

No one is more a Poch fan than a Spurs fan. It is simply a recognition that the problems go beyond the idea that he’s playing a diamond or that he may have subtly called out some
players in the press who already publicly declared their lack of commitment.

Simply put, and it comes back to this - we succeeded because the whole club got on the same page. We began a cycle and experienced the joys of the upswing. It wasn’t just Poch, it was Levy, it was the right players playing the right way, but Poch was a big part of that. And now we’re on a downswing of that cycle, the core hasn’t been replaced when all of our rivals have done so, we’ve failed to make moves in multiple windows, and we were paying key players less than elsewhere.

It was never that it was all Poch’s magic, just like now it’s not like he’s lost it. The club was for a beautiful time all on one page. My view is if we get back there, as long as the Manager is talented and continues to be adaptable and learn, we will continue to progress. And I think Poch is talented and adaptable. It was never all about him, and it still isn’t. But he has earned the trust to get us back on an upswing. He has earned the trust not to bear the failure of the downswing entirely on his own shoulders, when they are way more factors involved in the success or failure of a football club. We succeeded because we got all of those factors working for us, they were aligned. We are failing because they are breaking apart.

Brilliant post.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Corner turned? Tbf i thought the same after Palace.

In a strange way, Pool away could be a good fixture for us next. Zero expectation, just put in a performance and it would be acceptable, rather than toiling away against a 10 men behind the ball team at the Lane that we’d be expected to beat by 3 goals and labouring away. The space might suit us?

 

[monkeybarry]

One good result against a team that would be EPL mid table.
It's a start. Let's hope it's a return, not a one off.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

One good result against a team that would be EPL mid table.
It's a start. Let's hope it's a return, not a one off.

They wouldn't be midtable in the championship to be honest.

Otherwise completely agree with the sentiment

 

[SylDave]

They wouldn't be midtable in the championship to be honest.

Otherwise completely agree with the sentiment

We can only beat what’s in front of us, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Colchester, Brighton and Watford are all brick, if we put in one of them sort of performances tonight we would be looking at a similar result right now, it’s going to take a good 6 weeks even into January for me to fully regain my trust in him because after Saturday and the accumulation of the last year he wasn’t in credit he was in debt with me.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Two words.

BAYERN. MUNICH.

Now does that added bit of context add to understanding?

I think the effort has been decidedly worse. Its going through the motions stuff more than actually trying.

So because Bayern beat us 7-2 the players suddenly stop trying in the next game? I just don't buy it.

I was at the game on Saturday and (other than Toby, where it's nothing new IMO) there was no lack of effort from Spurs. There definitely looks to be a lack of confidence with some players and I think that is translating to playing far too safe

Ill be blunt, I have literally no interest in a biblical exchange that results in the usual deflection and distraction from you, Id really rather just agree to disagree and pass on the whole thing.

That’s a fudging first!.... Though I bet you won’t.

 

[Bullet]

Since you like the business metaphors, I will say that I work in start up tech / venture capital. In these companies, the people that are right for the 0-100 person journey are not the same ones that are right for 100-500, 500-1500 etc. Sometimes you need to change the leadership team. Sometimes though the leadership team, particularly the founders, are super adaptable and able to go through all of the stages and continue to succeed. It is also worth saying that sometimes things may happen to companies as they try and get to the next stage - competitors come out with new products, a new regulation changes the game, they soon run out of runway and can’t figure the unit economics out quickly enough - that mean that it’s sometimes a bloody struggle to get to the next milestone. Sometimes the Founder is the right one but external circumstances have meant that the journey to getting where they need to was a bloody struggle, with lots of ups and downs. Sometimes you need to get the Founder out, no doubt, but actually given the amount of problems these companies face on the road to ultimate success, the proportion of time you trust in the guy to figure it out is probably much bigger than the proportion of time you cut him loose.

It feels like you are drawing on your experience from maybe big corporate land where things are more established, if things go wrong, it’s fine, because the company will continue and under performance can be punished. But I’d say if there is any club that resembles a start up, one that is ‘on a journey’ and changing itself from plucky underdog to established player, it is us. We are going to face external pressures. We are going to go through tough periods where things don’t go our way and we need to stay the course.

Makes sense. Levy is the Founder.
Poch was brought in as the new Sales Director, after the last guy foundered. He had a great few years, but recently has started making bad decisions and is losing clients and upsetting the other staff. It might be time for a new Sales Director, or we could ride it out... it is up to the Sales Director to turn things around.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Didn’t feel like that sitting in the ground.

I was there for all of them.... Brighton felt the worst by a long way. That was proper abject. The worst performance since Liverpool at home under AVB I’d say. Watford was second but a long way behind (although that perhaps counts City away as a plucky, backs to the wall draw as opposed to the footballing lesson that it actually was).

 

[glasgowspur]

A little of topic but only other thread I could put is the PL one but that doesn't seem right.
Is it right our next two league games are away to Liverpool and Everton?
So after 11 games we will have been away to City, arsenal, Liverpool, Leicester and Everton?
Fudge me, did we tinkle someone off.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A little of topic but only other thread I could put is the PL one but that doesn't seem right.
Is it right our next two league games are away to Liverpool and Everton?
So after 11 games we will have been away to City, arsenal, Liverpool, Leicester and Everton?
Fudge me, did we tinkle someone off.

Yep that’s right