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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

I've seen enough to predict that he won't be able to step up to win something significant in his career.
After being at Spurs for 5 years, Pochettino is the longest serving Spurs manager since Burkinshaw (8 years) 1976-1984. But unlike Burkinshaw who won 2 FA Cups and 1 UEFA Cup, Pochettino has not won any trophies for us. Pochettino's record at Spurs will show PL runners-up, League Cup runners-up, CL runners-up and 2 FA Cup semi finals. He came close but just couldn't make the step further to make the finishing touch. Unless Pochettino go on to win a trophy for us after this, history books won't forgive him for failing to win any trophies for us. Just like Pleat in 1987, Pochettino will be called a "nearly man" of football for coming close but failing when it really mattered most !

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42 games mate, he's had more than a season.

I just need to see something from Poch that shows he's got something more to his playbook than take 22 year old players and outrun the opposition (it doesn't scale to the top)

We were worried when the choice was made for Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB and now Poch .. the club will survive and likely do better (the base lifts each time)

42 games with a squad that went multiple windows without any improvements and is coming to the end of its cycle. And in that time we still made a CL final.

Does he prefer younger players? Probably? Does the way they have been motivated and the hardship that this squad has been through with no stadium, less wages etc mean they may be more keen to leave than had they had an easier life at a different club? Quite possibly too.

But we simply don’t know that any other Manager comes in and does much better with this squad over the long term, especially considering the current Manager has obviously wanted certain players out for a long time and is therefore likely just as wary of the stagnation that was about to occur.

I would also say, as a slightly seperate point, people are pointing to Poch’s contradictions in the press as a reason for the failure now, but he has always done this. I go back to the idea that he sends mixed messages so no one really knows what is going on. Through the years that has worked pretty well and kept everyone off of any scent.
 
Just want to see some passion from the players and manager, not out of control stuff more desire in our play. As @parklane1 alluded to the pace of our play is pedestrian and some players aren't cutting it at the moment. For the time being the likes of Rose, Aurier, etc. have to be involved within the squad until January as more disharmony will only cause more problems and it also gives others a chance to rest up or get back from injury, ie. Davies. @markysimmo has mentioned on a few occasions the lack of attacking players in the team and he's absolutely right although I would like to see Dier back in the side. Once settled I would hope we go back to a system the players are happy with to optimize theirs and therefore the teams performance. Until January I'd like to see the following team barring injuries with no more than 2-3 changes to freshen things:
--------------------Gazzaniga------------------------
Foyth----Sanchez----Vertonghen---Davies
-----------------Dier--------Ndombele-------------
---------Moura------Dele-----------Son-----------
-------------------------Kane---------------------------

Performances have been very up and down the past 12-18 months and I'm hoping it's the upheaval that's surrounded the club in that time that's mainly responsible. Once the side is settled and LoCelso and Sessegnon come into the squad properly we'll see if Poch can regain his magic from the first 3 seasons and we move forward. If things continue to go as they have been then I really don't know what will happen, will be a shame to see Poch sacked but will it be unavoidable if we're languishing in the bottom half of the table?
 
Just want to see some passion from the players and manager, not out of control stuff more desire in our play. As @parklane1 alluded to the pace of our play is pedestrian and some players aren't cutting it at the moment. For the time being the likes of Rose, Aurier, etc. have to be involved within the squad until January as more disharmony will only cause more problems and it also gives others a chance to rest up or get back from injury, ie. Davies. @markysimmo has mentioned on a few occasions the lack of attacking players in the team and he's absolutely right although I would like to see Dier back in the side. Once settled I would hope we go back to a system the players are happy with to optimize theirs and therefore the teams performance. Until January I'd like to see the following team barring injuries with no more than 2-3 changes to freshen things:
--------------------Gazzaniga------------------------
Foyth----Sanchez----Vertonghen---Davies
-----------------Dier--------Ndombele-------------
---------Moura------Dele-----------Son-----------
-------------------------Kane---------------------------

Performances have been very up and down the past 12-18 months and I'm hoping it's the upheaval that's surrounded the club in that time that's mainly responsible. Once the side is settled and LoCelso and Sessegnon come into the squad properly we'll see if Poch can regain his magic from the first 3 seasons and we move forward. If things continue to go as they have been then I really don't know what will happen, will be a shame to see Poch sacked but will it be unavoidable if we're languishing in the bottom half of the table?
Slow play comes from slow thought and arguably slow movement... when your trying to start attacks from the back you need someone with some urgency... we have two geriatrics now
 
People should trust that Poch knows exactly what he wants to do
Managers who are failing never go for the simple solution, ie a back 4 screened by Dier or Skipp.
The team is so much less than the sum of its parts right now, and that is totally down to the manager.
 
Looking back, I believe the last game that we were looking like the exciting attacking Poch team was away at Everton in December. That day the team was :

  • 1 Lloris
  • 2 Trippier
  • 6 Sanchez
  • 4 Alderweireld
  • 33 Davies
  • 8 Winks
  • 17 Sissoko
  • 23 Eriksen
  • 20 Alli
  • 7 Son
  • 10 Kane
  • Substitutes
    • 3 Rose
    • 11 Lamela (s 46')
    • 16 Walker-Peters
    • 21 Foyth
    • 22 Gazzaniga
    • 27 Lucas Moura (s 83')
    • 52 Skipp (s 79')
So, with the exception of Trippier, all the players are still at the club. Looking at United today, I think that part of the problem is how Poch is approaching our dramatic loss of form. Where they were positive, we were negative.
 
After being at Spurs for 5 years, Pochettino is the longest serving Spurs manager since Burkinshaw (8 years) 1976-1984. But unlike Burkinshaw who won 2 FA Cups and 1 UEFA Cup, Pochettino has not won any trophies for us. Pochettino's record at Spurs will show PL runners-up, League Cup runners-up, CL runners-up and 2 FA Cup semi finals. He came close but just couldn't make the step further to make the finishing touch. Unless Pochettino go on to win a trophy for us after this, history books won't forgive him for failing to win any trophies for us. Just like Pleat in 1987, Pochettino will be called a "nearly man" of football for coming close but failing when it really mattered most !

Any team news yet?
 
People should trust that Poch knows exactly what he wants to do
Managers who are failing never go for the simple solution, ie a back 4 screened by Dier or Skipp.
The team is so much less than the sum of its parts right now, and that is totally down to the manager.

And yet, we tried this exact thing at Brighton and it was one of the worst performances for years. It suggests to me there is something bigger going on than the Manager not doing the obvious things, because the rot is structural and is a build up of lots of things.

The Everton game mentioned above was also a pretty simple, bog standard 4-2-3-1. It isn’t the formation that is the issue. Players are not winning their individual battles. They are not anticipating well. They are not confident and they are scarcely taking risks. Poch can do what he can do, but bigger change needs to happen.
 
And yet, we tried this exact thing at Brighton and it was one of the worst performances for years. It suggests to me there is something bigger going on than the Manager not doing the obvious things, because the rot is structural and is a build up of lots of things.

The Everton game mentioned above was also a pretty simple, bog standard 4-2-3-1. It isn’t the formation that is the issue. Players are not winning their individual battles. They are not anticipating well. They are not confident and they are scarcely taking risks. Poch can do what he can do, but bigger change needs to happen.


Simple as that really, there is a lot of hot air by some fans moaning about formations but that is missing the real reason.
 
Just booted up a game of Football Manager 2019 this afternoon.

First task was selling the following;
Gazzaniga, Aurier, Rose, Jan, Toby, Dier, Wanyama, Sissoko, Eriksen and Lamela. :D

Quite a bit of disruption, but it needed doing!

...going to be a big season for Skippy, Jack Roles, Carter-Vickers, and Oakley-Booth, to name just a few!!! :D:D:D

come on Poch, follow suit!
 
Lot of panic and over reaction by some fans is not surprising we have been on a upward climb over the last 4/5 years and this is our first real stumble. Its the same at all clubs and although it is not surprising its is sad to see here.

Do not get me wrong i am as unhappy as most fans with some of our performances this season but we are in a different situation then when we pulled the plug on the likes of "rent a quote" AVB and Ramos. We have come a long way since Poch arrived here and if any fan think different then they are not focusing on just how far we have come.

What concerns me more then anything is the pace of our play, there has been a lot of bitching by some fans about the formations we have played but in all honesty that is not the biggest problem, and some fans are blaming them for our run is over estimating that part of the game. IMO

The players are ( looking) unfit ( which i find hard to believe) or are not really trying to be progressive. Now who is to blame for that is the million dollar question and i am not convince d that is the managers fault.

To many of our players ( seem) to be going through the motions rather then trying to make things happen, included in that ( imo) are Rose ( who should be no where near the first team) Toby who has regressed more then any of our players ( imo) Kane what has happened to him? he is a shadow of the player he has been over the last few years, i am sure there are others but they seem to be our biggest concern.

As for Poch? well as i have said before he has done enough over the last few years to be given the benefit of the doubt and i would HOPE he will get to the end of the season before we get back into the habit of sacking managers.

As for the game yesterday i thought we were a lot better in the second half after the change at half time, and i hope changes are made in the team over the next few weeks. For me Davies has to come in for Rose, Toby should be dropped and Sanchez should be picked over him going forward, Foyth should be given a run of games at RB as well. That would give us three changes in the back four ( i would keep Jan there) and would ( imo) strengthen our defense.

Alli looked like he is recovering some of his form yesterday so would hope he starts to show how good he is, for me Dier HAS to play. I understand that some fans have lost patience with Poch but i see not real gain in making changes so soon into the season.

Mate, I really don’t think it’s an overreaction. If you look at the points total over the last 3 seasons it has got worse each season; 77, 71, doesn’t look like it will be over 70 this season. It’s been crap since February. We’ve only beaten mid table teams or teams who got relegated, our home form is lukewarm but our away form is even worse. Personally I’d say the two games that were turning points for us this year we Wolves at home and Burnley away. Two games when neutrals started to talk us up as title challengers but fell completely flat on our faces in both games as we always do whenever we have the chance to put pressure on the league leaders, not to mention Poch’s Gallas style meltdown at Turf Moor. That game felt like he knew the title was gone.

We keep thinking each defeat is as bad as it gets but it keep getting worse; losing to Colchester, getting pumped by Bayern, losing 3-0 to Brighton and now scraping a draw against the worst team in the league.

If I could give him any advice it would be to pick the players who are playing well; Lamela and Ndombele, keep it simple, play the formation that suits the players best and which they feel most comfortable with.

I say all of this as someone still behind Poch. At the same time I am baffled when people say this is a blip as we’ve been crap since February. 19 defeats out of 42 games.
 
And yet, we tried this exact thing at Brighton and it was one of the worst performances for years. It suggests to me there is something bigger going on than the Manager not doing the obvious things, because the rot is structural and is a build up of lots of things.

The Everton game mentioned above was also a pretty simple, bog standard 4-2-3-1. It isn’t the formation that is the issue. Players are not winning their individual battles. They are not anticipating well. They are not confident and they are scarcely taking risks. Poch can do what he can do, but bigger change needs to happen.

You're right formation isn't the issue really. That's just moving deckchairs around the Titanic. However it's a popular debate amongst fans because the alternative formation we choose can never really be tested. It's not personnel. Players become better in people's heads after a spell out. Dier was championed on here before Brighton, played and was awful. It's also not players throwing in the towel and not giving a fudge... certainly not in the way being inferred by several posters on here.

It's simply a case that the players have lost confidence in Poch. The lack of loyalty to the club, the digging the players out in public, the book, the lemons and aura flimflam, the acting like a spoilt teenager, the inane utterances, the lack of a proper Plan B. You cant believe in or follow a man who carries on like that and it's being reflected on the pitch.

He's a decent man, he's done a great job here and he'll go to another club and do well for a period. But he's done here.
 
And yet, we tried this exact thing at Brighton and it was one of the worst performances for years. It suggests to me there is something bigger going on than the Manager not doing the obvious things, because the rot is structural and is a build up of lots of things.

The Everton game mentioned above was also a pretty simple, bog standard 4-2-3-1. It isn’t the formation that is the issue. Players are not winning their individual battles. They are not anticipating well. They are not confident and they are scarcely taking risks. Poch can do what he can do, but bigger change needs to happen.

Clearly you are right and there is more going on beyond the formation - he’s lost the dressing room and either half the squad needs to go or the manager has to go. If its true that players like dele and kane have also had enough of Poch then undoubtedly the manager has to be the one that walks.

But systems cannot be dismissed as a mere side note to whats causing the issues on the pitch.

At brighton he played a ridiculous 4141 formation and stuck ndombele as one of the four, just like he did to sissoko in that formation when he first signed for us. It meant we had no one who could under pressure get the ball off the centre backs or full backs and then get it into the attacking midfielders.

Systems are important and the fact that poch is also getting that wrong atm is very very damning.
 
You're right formation isn't the issue really. That's just moving deckchairs around the Titanic. However it's a popular debate amongst fans because the alternative formation we choose can never really be tested. It's not personnel. Players become better in people's heads after a spell out. Dier was championed on here before Brighton, played and was awful. It's also not players throwing in the towel and not giving a fudge... certainly not in the way being inferred by several posters on here.

It's simply a case that the players have lost confidence in Poch. The lack of loyalty to the club, the digging the players out in public, the book, the lemons and aura flimflam, the acting like a spoilt teenager, the inane utterances, the lack of a proper Plan B. You cant believe in or follow a man who carries on like that and it's being reflected on the pitch.

He's a decent man, he's done a great job here and he'll go to another club and do well for a period. But he's done here.

Ok, I mean we have absolutely nothing to suggest that the lemons and the aura stuff is the reason for anything, unless you are genuinely party to something behind the scenes which I’m not, in which case I’ll gladly admit I’m wrong.

The loyalty to the club is in turning down Madrid while the same players look for an exit route every single window. Did they lose confidence in him before the CL final or straight after? They are in it for themselves more than Poch is.

Poch is sticking with players he would clearly like to personally bomb out and is not digging them in public at all. There are a few getting way more playing time then they deserve and soon they will be put out of their misery.

I don’t deny that some players may feel like they aren’t motivated by it anymore. And if the core that we expect to be here long term; Dele, Kane, Son, Winks, Sanchez - if those guys have truly ‘lost confidence’, then I’d say there’s nothing Poch can do to save himself. But if it’s simply that the players have lost confidence after a collective hammering and a tough window where certain ones didn’t get the moves that they expected, then Poch can still easily recover this because he has enough credit. I’d expect Levy to have asked Kane for example what he feels the problem is, and I don’t think Kane is throwing Poch under the bus.

I’d say the problem is not that the group as a whole has lost confidence, more than there are now 2 groups. Those that want to stay and still believe, and those who aren’t at the level they need to be and have been angling for moves. I remember watching a game in Poch’s first season where Jan was furious at Kaboul right on the pitch for being out of position, absolutely furious. And I thought it was interesting seeing Kane shake his head after his good ball went out to Aurier who let it go out of play. I wouldn’t be surprised if the players that still believe are getting fudged off with the ones that aren’t pulling their weight. As such we aren’t as tight knit, we aren’t on one page, we aren’t pulling each other through the tough times and recovering quickly.

Kane’s pointed comments a few weeks back suggest to me something along these lines - that players out for themselves need to help the team succeed still because it will make them look better. This makes much more sense to me than the whole squad having lost confidence, because frankly I think if that was the case Poch would already be out. And given what he did with Espanyol, he may have resigned already.
 
One of my main concerns with Poch is his record in the transfer market. It has been less than stellar so far. I'm wondering if he is the guy to spend money in January. Buys like Aurier, Jannsen and even Sanchez have hardly been a roaring success. Thoughts?
 
I don’t deny that some players may feel like they aren’t motivated by it anymore. And if the core that we expect to be here long term; Dele, Kane, Son, Winks, Sanchez - if those guys have truly ‘lost confidence’, then I’d say there’s nothing Poch can do to save himself. But if it’s simply that the players have lost confidence after a collective hammering and a tough window where certain ones didn’t get the moves that they expected, then Poch can still easily recover this because he has enough credit. I’d expect Levy to have asked Kane for example what he feels the problem is, and I don’t think Kane is throwing Poch under the bus.

I’d say the problem is not that the group as a whole has lost confidence, more than there are now 2 groups. Those that want to stay and still believe, and those who aren’t at the level they need to be and have been angling for moves. I remember watching a game in Poch’s first season where Jan was furious at Kaboul right on the pitch for being out of position, absolutely furious.

But isn't that the problem?

- Why would we accept that 1 player or 3 or 5 are not motivated anymore?
- Harry Redknapp managed to get Modric's best season out of him when Levy made him stay an extra year
- I genuinely don't believe Jan, Eriksen, Toby, Rose are characters that don't put in a shift game in, game out.

I'm sorry, this should be a simple conversation, play your ass off, continue to show why someone will want to buy you and come January or Summer you get your dream move, big paycheck, whatever the fudge it is.

But what it seems is Poch (who himself was indecisive at CL) is upset that people are committed to his cause and that is potentially what is the issue, not that the players want to leave, but perhaps he can't accept it.

It comes back to Poch looking very much like a one trick pony, everyone needs to be a believer and run themselves into the ground vs. allowing very good players to at least play at a par level.
 
Ok, I mean we have absolutely nothing to suggest that the lemons and the aura stuff is the reason for anything, unless you are genuinely party to something behind the scenes which I’m not, in which case I’ll gladly admit I’m wrong.

The loyalty to the club is in turning down Madrid while the same players look for an exit route every single window. Did they lose confidence in him before the CL final or straight after? They are in it for themselves more than Poch is.

Poch is sticking with players he would clearly like to personally bomb out and is not digging them in public at all. There are a few getting way more playing time then they deserve and soon they will be put out of their misery.

I don’t deny that some players may feel like they aren’t motivated by it anymore. And if the core that we expect to be here long term; Dele, Kane, Son, Winks, Sanchez - if those guys have truly ‘lost confidence’, then I’d say there’s nothing Poch can do to save himself. But if it’s simply that the players have lost confidence after a collective hammering and a tough window where certain ones didn’t get the moves that they expected, then Poch can still easily recover this because he has enough credit. I’d expect Levy to have asked Kane for example what he feels the problem is, and I don’t think Kane is throwing Poch under the bus.

I’d say the problem is not that the group as a whole has lost confidence, more than there are now 2 groups. Those that want to stay and still believe, and those who aren’t at the level they need to be and have been angling for moves. I remember watching a game in Poch’s first season where Jan was furious at Kaboul right on the pitch for being out of position, absolutely furious. And I thought it was interesting seeing Kane shake his head after his good ball went out to Aurier who let it go out of play. I wouldn’t be surprised if the players that still believe are getting fudged off with the ones that aren’t pulling their weight. As such we aren’t as tight knit, we aren’t on one page, we aren’t pulling each other through the tough times and recovering quickly.

Kane’s pointed comments a few weeks back suggest to me something along these lines - that players out for themselves need to help the team succeed still because it will make them look better. This makes much more sense to me than the whole squad having lost confidence, because frankly I think if that was the case Poch would already be out. And given what he did with Espanyol, he may have resigned already.

Sending mixed messages about whether or not he'd be here. Saying this isn't the best squad he's had. Talking about different agendas in the squad. Digging out Dier in his book. Inferring Sissoko was a Levy signing in his book and distancing himself from the contract extension. Talking brick about the club.

If I'm being led by someone I want to know they're gonna be there when times get tough. Pochs not done that with all of the above.

And during their darkest hour, after losing the CL final, you need your manager to set the example. To rally the troops. To tell them it's a setback but we'll be back. What did our man apparently do. Abandoned ship because he was so disappointed and fudged off to Barcelona on his own.

That's not a leader. Thats a spoilt brat who lets his own emotions dictate his decisions. He's a charlatan and what we are seeing now is the culmination of all his childish antics and utterances combined with his limited tactical acumen. This will only end one way. The sooner the better.
 
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