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Climate Change

SpurMeUp said:
Is there one in Tottenham!?
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Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
I'm all for tackling climate change but no one will actually spell out what people can do and what it will mean for people - instead we continually get more waffle about various aims and aspirations. Caroline Lucas wrote this (https://www.theguardian.com/comment...eal-bill-co2-emissions-britain-climate-action) and links to a bill they intend to publish which doesn't detail a single police. It's just a list of nice things - until people can spell things out then it's very difficult to know whether what's being proposed is realistically possible, I suspect it isn't which is why the details aren't out there. People aren't going to stop going on holiday, start installing heat pumps and stop driving.
 
My real issue with these events are wed to the communist movement. A lot of people seem to have jumped on this bandwagon because it so conveniently matches their political outlook.
 
scaramanga said:
My real issue with these events are wed to the communist movement. A lot of people seem to have jumped on this bandwagon because it so conveniently matches their political outlook.
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The more the merrier. The communist connection is ridiculous btw. Your real issue is that you don't like environmentalists.
 
scaramanga said:
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It's very real and very not ridiculous.
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Are they from the marches from a few days ago? I saw nothing like that on the one I was on, nor any I was ever on. Maybe it's a Uk thing. There are always a few loonies.

Edit: also you don't like environmentalists, am I right?
 
I have no idea what can be done. All I know is politicians continuously create arbitrary targets about reducing emissions by dates for which they’ll be out of office, likely dead and thus unaccountable for without demonstrating what they are actually doing.
 
Rorschach said:
Are they from the marches from a few days ago? I saw nothing like that on the one I was on, nor any I was ever on. Maybe it's a Uk thing. There are always a few loonies.
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In London yes. That lot have always been closely tied because they already wanted to tear down all the brick we've worked so hard for.

Rorschach said:
Edit: also you don't like environmentalists, am I right?
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I don't think that's accurate. I tend to dislike the kind of people who are environmentalists, but not because they are.

I have no time whatsoever for people who inconvenience me to make a point. I don't care how valid they think their point is, make me sit in traffic and they can burn for all I care.

I also think most of them are completely misguided. I think I've made the point in this thread before, but if their answer is all of us wearing hair shirts, they'll fail. They and we need to support the creation of more sustainable energy, technology and food production that is at least as good and at least as cheap as we already have.

More importantly than that, the biggest changes we can make are the education of the world's poorest people (especially women) and the removal of the influence of religion in those countries. The consequent reduction in population growth would have a far greater effect.
 
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scaramanga said:
In London yes. That lot have always been closely tied because they already wanted to tear down all the brick we've worked so hard for.


I don't think that's accurate. I tend to dislike the kind of people who are environmentalists, but not because they are.

I have no time whatsoever for people who inconvenience me to make a point. I don't care how valid they think their point is, make me sit in traffic and they can burn for all I care.

I also think most of them are completely misguided. I think I've made the point in this thread before, but if their answer is all of us wearing hair shirts, they'll fail. They and we need to support the creation of more sustainable energy, technology and food production that is at least as good and at least as cheap as we already have.

More importantly than that, the biggest changes we can make are the education of the world's poorest people (especially women) and the removal of the influence of religion in those countries. The consequent reduction in population growth would have a far greater effect.
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Thats a cop-out. In this case the kids making you sit in traffic is so that you and your family don't burn.

I think it's you are that is misguided if you think hair shirts (whatever they are) is the message. I would say the biggest failing of the environmental movement, for years, was their messaging. They couldn't make a compelling argument even with the most compelling of subjects. That has changed in my opinion and the fact that you can list the primary concerns of the more sober minded environmental commentators shows that they have improved on this front. Welcome to the club. I'll send you a hairy t-shirt.
 
Rorschach said:
Thats a cop-out. In this case the kids making you sit in traffic is so that you and your family don't burn.

I think it's you are that is misguided if you think hair shirts (whatever they are) is the message. I would say the biggest failing of the environmental movement, for years, was their messaging. They couldn't make a compelling argument even with the most compelling of subjects. That has changed in my opinion and the fact that you can list the primary concerns of the more sober minded environmental commentators shows that they have improved on this front. Welcome to the club. I'll send you a hairy t-shirt.
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The argument standalone is comepelling and I'm in agreement with it but they continually fail to outline policies and how they will be funded and implemented.

There was a LBC phone in last week with Jean Lambert and when people phoned in with genuine questions like how does free movement work with reducing climate emissions, how do you reduce reliance on gas without using electricity which is 3 times the cost he had no answer and just said it would need to be looked at. The answer to the latter was increase use of ground source heat pumps which is ridiculous - the costs are huge (could come down with mass installation) but apparently you need a massive garden (as in 700 SQM for an 8GW one - https://smartrenewableheat.com/blog/how-much-space-needed-for-ground-source-heat-pump-gshp/). That's just not realistic.
 
P.D. said:
The argument standalone is comepelling and I'm in agreement with it but they continually fail to outline policies and how they will be funded and implemented.

There was a LBC phone in last week with Jean Lambert and when people phoned in with genuine questions like how does free movement work with reducing climate emissions, how do you reduce reliance on gas without using electricity which is 3 times the cost he had no answer and just said it would need to be looked at. The answer to the latter was increase use of ground source heat pumps which is ridiculous - the costs are huge (could come down with mass installation) but apparently you need a massive garden (as in 700 SQM for an 8GW one - https://smartrenewableheat.com/blog/how-much-space-needed-for-ground-source-heat-pump-gshp/). That's just not realistic.
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The policies will come with acceptance of the framework (the GND in the USA for instance), and the political will to enforce it will be driven by public demand. The 'how to' is pretty much known in every sector except maybe aviation. We are now really getting to the point where climate will invade every discussion in society. The government can no longer deal with climate as a separate bullet point. It will be all-encompassing and the cost of inaction will be far higher in the medium to long term.

For your own sanity you do need to divorce the efforts of an individual from the efforts of business/state/EU though or it gets a little muddled. Not to put too fine a point on it, nothing you can do will make that much of a difference really. Yes every little helps but the problem is at a scale that needs to be dealt with at the state level. In my opinion the best way you can really effect things is via your vote and voice (but please do the other things too :).

Those questions from that LBC interview sound a little misinformed. For instance, ground source heat pumps are not practical so any advice in that direction is frankly wrong, in a domestic situation at least. Air source heat pumps are suitable for most domestic situations and certainly a lot cheaper (though still not cheap enough yet IMO). There are a lot of complexities in an around heat pumps which I won't go into, but the rule of thumb is that you'll get at least 3 units of heat per unit of electricity consumed in the heat pump, so the higher price of electricity is more than counteracted by the efficiency of the system. In short, running a heat pump is far cheaper than a gas boiler in a well-insulated house, though they work less well in old houses.
 
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Rorschach said:
Thats a cop-out. In this case the kids making you sit in traffic is so that you and your family don't burn.
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They inconvenienced me fudge 'em.

If they want to make a point, let them go and make it in Burnley where they're not in my way.

Rorschach said:
I think it's you are that is misguided if you think hair shirts (whatever they are) is the message. I would say the biggest failing of the environmental movement, for years, was their messaging. They couldn't make a compelling argument even with the most compelling of subjects. That has changed in my opinion and the fact that you can list the primary concerns of the more sober minded environmental commentators shows that they have improved on this front. Welcome to the club. I'll send you a hairy t-shirt.
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hair shirt

So far, all of the options offered are of the hair short variety. Until the alternatives are at least as good and at least as cheap, there's no chance of it succeeding.

In order to be environmentally friendly I should drive a car that is significantly less good than mine or travel on forms of transport favoured by peasants. I should buy bricky local produce instead of what I want from the part of the world where it's in season. I'm told to eat less meat, to buy fewer things, to take fewer baths, make my house look hideous, etc.
 
scaramanga said:
They inconvenienced me fudge 'em.

If they want to make a point, let them go and make it in Burnley where they're not in my way.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hair shirt

So far, all of the options offered are of the hair short variety. Until the alternatives are at least as good and at least as cheap, there's no chance of it succeeding.

In order to be environmentally friendly I should drive a car that is significantly less good than mine or travel on forms of transport favoured by peasants. I should buy bricky local produce instead of what I want from the part of the world where it's in season. I'm told to eat less meat, to buy fewer things, to take fewer baths, make my house look hideous, etc.
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Bravo. A swift return to form. For a minute I thought you were going native.
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