Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[BrainOfLevy]

@BrainOfLevy i know we've discussed the whole concept of Poch's lack of rotation in the past, which you felt was more a case of "getting minutes into them"...i would love your thoughts on this now. I still think we are seeing the negative consequences of it now as the players barely look physically capable to gtackle well with any conviction, let alone press.
Happy to be given positive vibes with an alternative view, because it's all feels so brick now - and has for months, odd CL game aside..

I think we are pressing less because of the diamond, and Poch is trying to be somewhat ahead of the game with that. It means we are creating some good chances but I don’t think we are entirely comfortable with it in all phases, hence silly giveaways that lead to goals against Arsenal and Leceister.

I also think we tend to start slow with Poch (last season excepted because of the WC) and I think like usual we will click into gear. He’s got a bigger squad to manage now and I think he’ll do ok.

I haven’t really followed the debate after yesterday as there seems to be a bit of anti Poch momentum building and I just think it’s beyond silly. We were third at the start of the weekend, and but for a ridiculous VAR call we could well have been deservedly 2-0 up at a stadium many clubs will find difficult to take points from this year. I do think we need to get some comfort with the system - it feels to me that not all players are comfortable when we have to switch to a slower tempo possession game with it, but I think we will get there. And the chances we create are actually really good ones - we should have scored more than 1 yesterday.

I’m hoping at some point it clicks and Poch will get the plaudits for being forward thinking, sticking with his convinctions and seeing that if a majority of teams now press, good teams will know how to counter it. The next thing would be to do what Conte did, and get a system working that creates an advantage when we really know what we’re doing with it. We do need to be more clinical and take advantage of the chances, and we do need to stop making silly giveaways when we need to keep the ball. It may be harder to retain possession as opposed to with the 4231 but I can see why he’s doing it.

Either way, I think we’ll be fine and we’ll click into gear soon enough. We’ve barely had any N’Dombele, haven’t had a lot of Eriksen, no Lo Celso, no Sessegnon, only just have a senior right back. Dele injured, Dier missing most of pre season. I think we’re working on something which is beyond what people know Poch for, and we just need to get comfortable that it will look slightly different, have different advantages or drawbacks, but the overall picture is still looking pretty good to me.

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Havent read all the previous posts as to be honest i dont want to get wound up, as im sure a few have gone OTT.... For the first time i can see Poch leaving, which i think wouldnt be a disaster mainly as between him and Levy, we are now in a place where we should still move forward, however i think would set us back as i still think we would regret the day he leaves and jump around basically trying to find him again.

Q) Media Narrative Spurs dont spend the money and what can Poch do,
A) Well we kept everyone pretty much, brought in 3 quality players and have by all accounts offered enough money to Eriksen, for him to say its not about the money.

Q) Poch has fallen out or doesnt trust some of the players who wanted out
A) In which case why are Wanyama, Rose, Vertonghen, Toby, Eriksen, Aurier anywhere near the squad, unless he's also fallen out with all the others as well, he cleared out the Adebayor lot when they were trouble so youd expect the same now.

Q) Poch wants out and isnt interested
A) He would have just left had a holiday and waited for Ole or Zidane to go

At the moment it seems that we are in a very weird place @elltrev summed it up well above, where nothing quite really all makes sense, so it must be a sum of all of these things.
We will be ok, we will finish top 4, Poch did say he was expecting a painful rebuild so he obviously knew even if we didnt, maybe that was the fitness stats showing a drop-off, maybe he has been shouting more and more to get the same reaction who knows.

The one thing unfortunately that will force him out is being questioned, and thats an issue as a 17yr old from Philipines who supported the club after Ajax, has same voice as somebody with a ST for 30yrs. Equally his decision for Wanyama was mental. Ignore the Moura is amazing he has to play, Rose is my favourite look how much he wants it is gonad*s, he has to be questioned as to why he cant motivate the players, why he brings on Wanyama, but i can see those voices, especially when the Media Narrative switches forcing Poch to leave to save his legacy, and future job prospects.

 

[parklane1]

That's not the fans responsibility though, that's the point. People en mass are idiots which is why mob meteorology exists.

If your job in part relies on the good will of the masses, part of your job is to pander to them. If you don't like it, go manage a smaller team with no fans.

Of course it is, or are you saying fans are so stupid that putting their own judgement on what he means is the right choice.

As for your second point that Poch should pander to fans, well that is just foolish.

 

[scaramanga]

The tech isn’t sound
That’s the issue
It has a margin of error that is almost 20% of a players body width
That’s obscene

There is an easy fix... if the lines drawn overlap your onside as that’s the margin of error and level

That's just as arbitrary as the current system.

There will be a decision where the two lines do or don't overlap by precisely the same amount they differed on Saturday. Those same arguments about it not being accurate enough will be made and we'll have changed the rule for no benefit whatsoever.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That's just as arbitrary as the current system.

There will be a decision where the two lines do or don't overlap by precisely the same amount they differed on Saturday. Those same arguments about it not being accurate enough will be made and we'll have changed the rule for no benefit whatsoever.

But the tech there can prove the touching of the lines can’t it?

It’s gives them the 20cms tolerance

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think we are pressing less because of the diamond, and Poch is trying to be somewhat ahead of the game with that. It means we are creating some good chances but I don’t think we are entirely comfortable with it in all phases, hence silly giveaways that lead to goals against Arsenal and Leceister.

I also think we tend to start slow with Poch (last season excepted because of the WC) and I think like usual we will click into gear. He’s got a bigger squad to manage now and I think he’ll do ok.

I haven’t really followed the debate after yesterday as there seems to be a bit of anti Poch momentum building and I just think it’s beyond silly. We were third at the start of the weekend, and but for a ridiculous VAR call we could well have been deservedly 2-0 up at a stadium many clubs will find difficult to take points from this year. I do think we need to get some comfort with the system - it feels to me that not all players are comfortable when we have to switch to a slower tempo possession game with it, but I think we will get there. And the chances we create are actually really good ones - we should have scored more than 1 yesterday.

I’m hoping at some point it clicks and Poch will get the plaudits for being forward thinking, sticking with his convinctions and seeing that if a majority of teams now press, good teams will know how to counter it. The next thing would be to do what Conte did, and get a system working that creates an advantage when we really know what we’re doing with it. We do need to be more clinical and take advantage of the chances, and we do need to stop making silly giveaways when we need to keep the ball. It may be harder to retain possession as opposed to with the 4231 but I can see why he’s doing it.

Either way, I think we’ll be fine and we’ll click into gear soon enough. We’ve barely had any N’Dombele, haven’t had a lot of Eriksen, no Lo Celso, no Sessegnon, only just have a senior right back. Dele injured, Dier missing most of pre season. I think we’re working on something which is beyond what people know Poch for, and we just need to get comfortable that it will look slightly different, have different advantages or drawbacks, but the overall picture is still looking pretty good to me.

Ok, i'm sold!

In that case, can i ask you who do you envision starts in this new style/tactics if everyone is fit?

Also, how would you compare what you think Poch is trying to do to what Sarri's Chelsea were when at their best last season? I ask because i thought they had the most press-resistant team in the league last season when everyone was available

 

[elltrev]

That's just as arbitrary as the current system.

There will be a decision where the two lines do or don't overlap by precisely the same amount they differed on Saturday. Those same arguments about it not being accurate enough will be made and we'll have changed the rule for no benefit whatsoever.

There’ll always be a degree of arbitrariness. But I think where you draw the line also depends on whether or not you think the advantage should be given to the attacker, and/or if you think you should need particularly strong evidence to overturn a decision via VAR. In either of those cases, it makes sense to require more confidence that the player was offside. A bit like statistical significance requiring 95-99% confidence in science I.e. a very high level of confidence.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Ok, i'm sold!

In that case, can i ask you who do you envision starts in this new style/tactics if everyone is fit?

Also, how would you compare what you think Poch is trying to do to what Sarri's Chelsea were when at their best last season? I ask because i thought they had the most press-resistant team in the league last season when everyone was available

I never saw them resisting anything
They were pretty mediocre bailed out by hazard

 

[glorygloryeze]

@BrainOfLevy but how do you explain the sheer inability at times to tackle cleanly in the midfield? It's almost like these new tactics means no tackles??

 

[glorygloryeze]

I never saw them resisting anything
They were pretty mediocre bailed out by hazard

Disagree. Their midfield were very good at getting through the press of City and Klopp many times; the quick passing of Jorginho, dribbling of Kovacic and the pressing, tackling and forward thrusts of Kante was like us under Poch at our best. The way they played it out from the back with their midfield worked very well when it did - though was horrific when it didn't, e.g. Emirates Marketing Project away

 

[thfcsteff]

As ever from you mate a detailed and well-presented response. I will answer in bold within the quote mate...

Steff, you were one of the most vocal after that summer window IIRC saying that Poch had been backed by the club and that they HAD been brave...are you now saying the club didn't back Poch at the time?

If there is one possible area they did not do what he wanted, it was in taking reasonable bids for fringe players/shipping out others regardless of cost. Obviously that would not be great business, so I see Levy’s point too. I think there is frustration more than blame. BTW you do remember that I defined “brave” as buying top players he wanted and not filler, right? In that regard I think he got what he wanted and may yet get Dybala.



Why can he not afford to do this actually, if they aren't playing well enough etc? 1 - if he is the good manager he is meant to be players play on merit and sign for the club 'to train' before he decides who has trained well etc before picking his team? 2 - Do you not see how that description actually makes Poch look weak given this is now his team and he has far more control - in theory - than when he joined? 3 - also Poch HAS done this with Alderwiereld the season before last when Sanchez was constantly picked ahead of Alderwiereld! So when did Jan and Toby become the Kabouls and why?? Also, the purpose of buying Sanchez is so we have SQUAD of choice centre backs to use. The fact that Toby is still having to be used says as much about Sanchez' lack of improvement under Poch as anything about Toby..

I have to concede you may have a point reavo, but for me, he is currently a victim of his relative versatility. The season before, Toby was INJURED (as he was the season before) and missed many weeks because of it. There is a sub-story to that which remains unsubstantiated with regards to weight. I know he thought Toby would be off and Toby thought Toby would be off. Quite right too. He has cost us this season IMO. But again, you make good counter points, so agree to disagree.



Steff, i think you are ignoring quite a few things here and whilst it's good to be positive you have to ask WHY have we become so stale over the last year, which actually started imo after that historic win at Stamford Bridge in April 2018 - we have been creaking since then and scraped top 4 both times since then, whenb top 4 should have been givens long before the end.

Either this 'transition' hasn't gone well because Levy/the board have broken their promises [remember all that 'being brave' stuff??] or Poch himself has hit a brick wall with regards to how much his methods are focused on young-ish players being able to run and run more than the opposition and less on being able to out-smart the opposition.

You also cannot say that his public utterances haven't been short of shocking as @DeanoAustin, @Nigeyman and others have eloquently pointed out and it just might be that players - who are human after all - think, why should i bust my balls for someone who:

a) might leave any minute anyway
b) plays certain players no matter how they play, e.g. Alli, Trippier, Son or whatever misdemeanour they do, e.g. Lloris
c) doesn't think we are that good - see yesterday's quotes
d) now calls us out in public - see 'not following the plan' quotes
e) thinks trying to win domestic cups 'is just for egos'

I honestly cannot revisit the countless reasons offered over the last 12 months for out form/malaise, suffice to say stadium and injury issues last season were a major mitigator and if you choose to ignore those I cannot go any further.

Yes, it is certainly not great and requires deep investigation. With regards to quotes, I have also questioned him a couple of times this season with regards to specific moments, but this “pile-on” without analysis tinkles me off mate.

I have not seen his quotes from yesterday. I didn’t see Dele close to the team. I didn’t see anything about “leaving” recently. I did see him saying we need to win something. I have not seen him saying anything about “cups” and “egos” for some time. You have collected some sentiments from the last 18 months and
presented them as recent outbursts!

Look, I appreciate that my viewpoint is often seen as “clappy”. That is fine. I criticize when I think it is necessary and I always tend to look for context amidst the issues. I am GLAD he is unhappy. He should be. We are not able to close out winning positions! And it needs to be addressee. And I TRUST it will be.



The writing on the wall doesn't look good does it? The sad thing is it's mostly self-inflicted, and if we couldn't do the changes needed in summer 2018 - when we had time and things were clearer - what makes you think we'll be able to do such a much bigger and more desperately needed change in a much shorter timespan?

Because players will LEAVE and incoming players will see where they might operate!!!!! We all have our issues. Personally? I think we should’ve got Alves in (a la Naybet) to guide a few for 12-18 months as he is fudging WINNER! Poch was never going to do that. Ain’t his way. So I choose to accept that he will do things his way. I think this will be a tough season and top 4 is again my aim. When will that not be enough? Soon. When is soon? Great question. But right now, I do not believe that Poch deserves anything LESS than our support.

Last June, I made a 24 trip to the CL Final. I went not believing it was happening yet believing we could win. I have probably not -and might never- process that night fully. To be so close...Can it happen again? Truthfully, I do not think so with this current squad. Can it happen again with Poch? I believe it can.

Good discussion mate.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Disagree. Their midfield were very good at getting through the press of City and Klopp many times; the quick passing of Jorginho, dribbling of Kovacic and the pressing, tackling and forward thrusts of Kante was like us under Poch at our best. The way they played it out from the back with their midfield worked very well when it did - though was horrific when it didn't, e.g. Emirates Marketing Project away

I Thought their midfield was atrocious
The praise they got was bizarre
The only one who ever looked good enough was Kanye but not when playing as a WF
I think with players like Jorginho and his amazing stats people got carried away..
No assists all season wasn’t it?

 

[thfcsteff]

it sounds like he's has had to learn on the job regarding squad evolution. That must be very tough on him and very stressful!
They say a ’change is as good as a rest’ maybe it would be good for him to have a change of working environment and that is what we are seeing with his mood the August?
surly a director of football would have helped?

No more for us to say here mate. You appear to want him gone, I don’t. All good, it just appears we have reached the end of discussion on this particular topic.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Good discussion @thfcsteff

If there is one thing i have to say cannot be discounted is what you might say i have collected over the last 18 months and presented as recent in terms of his comments/outbursts etc. This is because this is a manager that is not just starting in the job now, whose players are not just starting to play for him now. And the form has not just been starting now but at least a year, if not longer.
So things have to be looked at in that context: what was said months ago still matters because most of those players are still here and are still mostly playing poorly; in fact has there been any player who has NOT regressed since the end of the 2017/18 season?

That is ultimately the most worrying aspect and there no "these aren't the coach's players" narrative or excuse that can be brought out.

But the start of this current re-evaluation of Poch's comments stems from his bizzare press conference in the summer where he sniped at reporters to instead ask the club/board to change his job title instead of asking him questions about our transfer activity/process; i men WTF??

That wasn't the press stirring, that was Poch HIMSELF creating story. All he had to do was just say the anodyne soundbite, of "well, we will have to see what happens" or "i'm hopeful of a couple of deals but we'll see" etc etc, but he CHOSE to snipe back at reporters for very basic questions, even one where a question was asked about if he was happy with Lamela's form. Again, WTF??

Anyway, I agree he deserves our support. And i'm hoping that @BrainOfLevy view on our tactics and formation changes means we are on the cusp of something great on the field....finger's crossed...

 

[glorygloryeze]

I Thought their midfield was atrocious
The praise they got was bizarre
The only one who ever looked good enough was Kanye but not when playing as a WF
I think with players like Jorginho and his amazing stats people got carried away..
No assists all season wasn’t it?

Their midfield was NOT atrocious, come on. They even dominated us a couple of times last season and you were giving us every excuse under the sun then for why that was...and look at how we ended up since then and up to now.
If we had their midfield from January onwards we wpuld almost certainly have finished 2nd!
Did you not think Dembele was amazing for us? How many assists did he get over many seasons?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Their midfield was NOT atrocious, come on. They even dominated us a couple of times last season and you were giving us every excuse under the sun then for why that was...and look at how we ended up since then and up to now.
If we had their midfield from January onwards we wpuld almost certainly have finished 2nd!
Did you not think Dembele was amazing for us? How many assists did he get over many seasons?

Dembele was a key player for us but we didn’t change the system to accommodate him like the did with Jorginho
I thought their football was gash, their fans did too. It was slow and plodding and all about keeping the ball but with no penetration

It’s why they hated Sarri.., or were they wrong?
The only midfielder in their team of top quality is Kante who is world class
Kovacic is poor and basically swaps with Barkley every game and Jorginho under a press crumbles

 

[glorygloryeze]

Dembele was a key player for us but we didn’t change the system to accommodate him like the did with Jorginho
I thought their football was gash, their fans did too. It was slow and plodding and all about keeping the ball but with no penetration

It’s why they hated Sarri.., or were they wrong?
The only midfielder in their team of top quality is Kante who is world class
Kovacic is poor and basically swaps with Barkley every game and Jorginho under a press crumbles

Chelsea fans a spoilt mugs - not the type to be referred to as football sages!

Sarri was their best chance to change their football for years to come and become more progressive and unique especially without Roman's millions; they really were the best at beating the high press imo. We'll see by December if they still look back so badly at Sarri's time, especially when you consider he took over when they had to try and get back into top 4 whilst being in EL. He passed that with flying colours and finished 3rd!
Chelsea's midfield last season was better than ours at controlling the tempo of games - if not at scoring goals - and that's why they finished above us, even though they had the disadvantage of Thursday nights to contend with.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Chelsea fans a spoilt mugs - not the type to be referred to as football sages!

Sarri was their best chance to change their football for years to come and become more progressive and unique especially without Roman's millions; they really were the best at beating the high press imo. We'll see by December if they still look back so badly at Sarri's time, especially when you consider he took over when they had to try and get back into top 4 whilst being in EL. He passed that with flying colours and finished 3rd!
Chelsea's midfield last season was better than ours at controlling the tempo of games - if not at scoring goals - and that's why they finished above us, even though they had the disadvantage of Thursday nights to contend with.

Or the massive advantage of spending millions on players we didn’t ...
And having a home ground ....
Their fans are the happiest I’ve seen them in a long time and their fukcing cavemen

 

[glorygloryeze]

Or the massive advantage of spending millions on players we didn’t ...
And having a home ground ....
Their fans are the happiest I’ve seen them in a long time and their fukcing cavemen

Lol at that last description

True re their spending and the home ground..however, i bet if i'd asked you in January or even in March who you'd think out of us or Chelsea who'd finish higher, i bet you wouldn't have said Chelsea....thy also had EL after all, let's not forget.

Anyway, regarding how happy they are, we'll see how that still is when they are languishing in 7th/8th by late December....there is only so much patiennce that lot will have, even for their Phat Phw@nk..

 

[thfcsteff]

Good discussion @thfcsteff

That wasn't the press stirring, that was Poch HIMSELF creating story. All he had to do was just say the anodyne soundbite, of "well, we will have to see what happens" or "i'm hopeful of a couple of deals but we'll see" etc etc, but he CHOSE to snipe back at reporters for very basic questions, even one where a question was asked about if he was happy with Lamela's form. Again, WTF??

Anyway, I agree he deserves our support. And i'm hoping that @BrainOfLevy view on our tactics and formation changes means we are on the cusp of something great on the field....finger's crossed...

Agreed on the first point. Leaving the rest as we each have our views. As for the last one, I commented that his press conferences and mood were unsettling, but I also know that you take the bad with the good. This man has built this current club in his own image and with his own emotional curve. It has been largely euphoric. Recently there have been issues. And the sheer power of his personality is such that a swing either way has a drastic effect. He is an emotional man. It will be what it will be.

I am prepared to take the ride for a while longer.