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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Robspur12 said:
This obsession with a "fairer" immigration system is misguided. We have a system now that is fair for the rest of the world, that is how my parents and most of my family came here. Look around you, if you live in London there are plenty of people from the rest of the world, Sri Lankans, Brazilians, Afghani, Fillipino Korean, to name a few. The advantage of the EU system is that it allowed our citizens to go and find work in other member states more easily. We have thrown that away. We do not have those rights with the rest of the world and it gave us real flexibility in the job market.

I stress again that immigration was a huge issue during the referendum. People were not voting for a replacement of EU citizens with those from the rest of the world.
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System that is fair but 'hell':D

Probate is hell but I've just journeyed through it.
Planning is hell but I've just journeyed through it.
It's not hell...it's a process...slow, form filling and a long dose of waiting, but you get there.

My discussion about a fair system is not based on anything to do with Brexit (I've tried to make that clear) it's solely about any country assessing the options and employing the fairest system to all other human beings on the planet that enters that system, just as any system, be it the ticket sales system at Tottenham or the pupil in take at primary schools, non-discrimination and transparent procedures should be primary targets.

If we can't freely walk into another EU country and work boo-hoo...just fill out some forms and jump thru some hoops. Hopefully it won't be to hellish.

As you say maybe immigration was a driver of the leave vote, so how do we address that?


And we know what @SpurMeUp will say, although he got a bit poo poo'd on by the BBC today:D
 
SpurMeUp said:
Were the figures for EU migration or RoW migration? RoW is not linked to leaving the EU at all. We control all of it now. EU migration is now about 70k a year, RoW 200k.

So you agree that the immigration system is discrimintory and not about fairness to migrants? I agree with you, a nation will always put its existing people first. That doesn't mean it shouldn't also have compassion. And we have a refugee and asylum seeking process which looks out for people who have escaped some kind of significant hardship.

We have almost 3 times as many migrants coming to the UK from the rest of the world as the EU. Our parliment controls that immigration now. It has zero to do with the EU, apart from they will take in these people that we take in. Opinion polls tell us people who are not wholly comfortable with migration prefer christian white migrants - basically the EU variety.

Do you believe Brexit will "fix" UK immigration?
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C'mon @SpurMeUp my old 'cherry picker' the BBC chart today from the ONS has shown what was going on with immigration during the 3 years up to the vote, and certainly wasn't split as you are suggesting.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
C'mon @SpurMeUp my old 'cherry picker' the BBC chart today from the ONS has shown what was going on with immigration during the 3 years up to the vote, and certainly wasn't split as you are suggesting.
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Don't push your luck. You know there's a graph out there that starts in 1950 and proves his point - or one that start 3.86 minutes ago.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
C'mon @SpurMeUp my old 'cherry picker' the BBC chart today from the ONS has shown what was going on with immigration during the 3 years up to the vote, and certainly wasn't split as you are suggesting.
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Before we move on to what @Scara kindly predicted, do you agree that migration policy is not about 'fairness' to migrants but fairness to nations? Aussie point system uses age and education for example. Lay your cards on the table, what's your world view on all this nonsense and brexit?

Post the old chart data, not seen it myself.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Before we move on to what @Scara kindly predicted, do you agree that migration policy is not about 'fairness' to migrants but fairness to nations? Aussie point system uses age and education for example. Lay your cards on the table, what's your world view on all this nonsense and brexit?

Post the old chart data, not seen it myself.
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F.ck me. It's fairness to people, not just migration policy, just all aspects of life in general. That should always be the aim. Migration will affect two lots of people, the people coming and the people already there....both of them want to be happy....do your best to create that situation.

Brexit I literally don't care about personally. There are bigger problems facing the world than Brexit.
 
I believe this is the graph which is taken from this article saying the statistics have been wrong for the last decade

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49420730

_104875576_chart-longtermmigration-r4xi3-nc.png
 
Parklaner81 said:
Indeed, as has been the case all along. May gets pilloried over her handling of the whole thing (and mostly deservedly so), but is it really any wonder we've ended up in such a weak position when you think about it...?
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Always going to be the case though given the split between remain and leave was almost 50:50. Leave, would not have shrunk back quietly if the numbers had gone the other way. The problem is that Cameron offered such a stupid binary choice. That made things so polarised. The guy really was an ar5e hole.
 
scaramanga said:
If the Labour party sees that in time and offers up a centrist alternative (I'm really fudging sure I've seen some smart arse telling us this was going to happen months ago), then it's a much closer choice.
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Sadly not going to happen any time soon. Going the other way at the moment. Good centrist MPs like Gloria De Piero are leaving because of the mess around the Labour party. Seems almost bullying if you do not share hard left values. While I can't help but like Corbyn the man, it is a feat in itself to make the shower that is the Tory party look like the only viable option to govern.
 
I don't think GDP was driven away as has given up trying to compromise with JC, I think she's realised she has no stock with the party membership. Afterall she was one of the first to resign in the big reversable suicide they all did a couple of years back.

Lib Dems are the natural refuge for the centrists, Corb's stratergy is betting that cons will bleed to LD & BP faster than Labour will - Risky but I genuinely don't think he's actually got any actual other card to play.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Before we move on to what @Scara kindly predicted, do you agree that migration policy is not about 'fairness' to migrants but fairness to nations? Aussie point system uses age and education for example. Lay your cards on the table, what's your world view on all this nonsense and brexit?
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Surely though based on your point of view would be to accept absolutely everyone then? If you think that having criteria is discriminate then there is surely no system that would sit well with you? If two migrants came to the UK, same nationality, one had a means to work and was a university graduate and the other had no skill set and no means to work you would take both, which is ok for you conscience but carnage in reality.

You have almost made the typical leftist rod for your own back because any system you suggest I could by your standards call discriminate unless you offered up total open borders which I could call insanity
 
P.D. said:
I believe this is the graph which is taken from this article saying the statistics have been wrong for the last decade

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49420730

_104875576_chart-longtermmigration-r4xi3-nc.png
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SpurMeUp said:
Cheers. What does it show us?

Do you share Ricks outlook that we should make migrants happy? I’m not sure what that look like exactly but the sentiment is nice [emoji106]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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I was saying I want both sides to be happy with the system. (Obviously not everyone might be happy with the outcomes)

I'm guessing some people were not happy with the system pre the referendum? So we try something else? Unless you can convince them they are misguided?

What you could do is put a ....'WTF are you on about 200k come from outside the EU and only 70k come from the EU so what's your problem' slogan on the side of a big red bus and drive it round the country. But that would be wrong, wouldn't it?.

Some people take information and slice and dice it to support their narrative. The sad part is others take it at face value...and even sadder pass it on.

The chart on the BBC posted by @P.D. was also accompanied by the ONS chart of the adjustments they have made since more accurate assessment of EU and non EU migration and EU migration outstripped non EU migration in the 3 years pre the referendum vote. You know...like the period where people might of had issues/been concerned about it :rolleyes:.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Surely though based on your point of view would be to accept absolutely everyone then? If you think that having criteria is discriminate then there is surely no system that would sit well with you? If two migrants came to the UK, same nationality, one had a means to work and was a university graduate and the other had no skill set and no means to work you would take both, which is ok for you conscience but carnage in reality.

You have almost made the typical leftist rod for your own back because any system you suggest I could by your standards call discriminate unless you offered up total open borders which I could call insanity
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Is this post meant for me? I've been consistent, saying national imigration policies have to discriminate. You told me they don't. And an Aussie system would be more fair to migrants. I said such a setup would be more fair to the UK, not more fair to migrants. Almost like you are arguing against your previous 'lefist' posts! Maybe you need to direct your points to @ricky2tricky4city who seems to favour a more open approach similar to what we have with EU migrants now.

My angle and question - which you weren't able or were unwilling to answer - is do you expect Brexit to "fix" UK immigration? Bearing in mind the UK needs some migrants for less skills work, we control the majority of our immigration now (from RoW). And that opinion polls report that Brits prefer european migrants to those from further afield. Is Brexit going to deliver on this key area do you think?
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I was saying I want both sides to be happy with the system. (Obviously not everyone might be happy with the outcomes)

I'm guessing some people were not happy with the system pre the referendum? So we try something else? Unless you can convince them they are misguided?

What you could do is put a ....'WTF are you on about 200k come from outside the EU and only 70k come from the EU so what's your problem' slogan on the side of a big red bus and drive it round the country. But that would be wrong, wouldn't it?.

Some people take information and slice and dice it to support their narrative. The sad part is others take it at face value...and even sadder pass it on.

The chart on the BBC posted by @P.D. was also accompanied by the ONS chart of the adjustments they have made since more accurate assessment of EU and non EU migration and EU migration outstripped non EU migration in the 3 years pre the referendum vote. You know...like the period where people might of had issues/been concerned about it :rolleyes:.
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So the figures have a margin or error. Doesn't change the reality now or broad picture. EU-RoW was around 50-50. Now its far more from RoW. Who cares that the figures are a bit off here and there? You're criticising but hesitant to commit to anything yourself. What is the something else you favor? Put something forward that you think would improve things.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Is this post meant for me? I've been consistent, saying national imigration policies have to discriminate. You told me they don't. And an Aussie system would be more fair to migrants. I said such a setup would be more fair to the UK, not more fair to migrants. Almost like you are arguing against your previous 'lefist' posts! Maybe you need to direct your points to @ricky2tricky4city who seems to favour a more open approach similar to what we have with EU migrants now.

My angle and question - which you weren't able or were unwilling to answer - is do you expect Brexit to "fix" UK immigration? Bearing in mind the UK needs some migrants for less skills work, we control the majority of our immigration now (from RoW). And that opinion polls report that Brits prefer european migrants to those from further afield. Is Brexit going to deliver on this key area do you think?
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No this is confused

I said the policy of being selective was not "discriminate" which was questioning your use of the term which I feel you used to try and suggest our preferred policy was in some way bigoted.

I will be very clear, I would be very selective and have no issue with the Aussie system, I am not going back down the road of arguing if that system was discriminate.

We do need migrants for less skilled work and any "selection" policy at the time will reflect that, aka like said the other day when the country requires a certain skill set you turn that tap on with immigration ane when the country is over subscribed in other skills you turn that tap off. Thats not hard to do.
 
Robspur12 said:
Always going to be the case though given the split between remain and leave was almost 50:50. Leave, would not have shrunk back quietly if the numbers had gone the other way.
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I don't completely accept that. There was always going to be a hardcore on either side that would've carried on with the argument - UKIP and the Lib Dems, let's say. But I still don't think it was unreasonable to have expected those 'hardcores' to have been a minority, and in turn to have expected that the moderate remain-voting block would have accepted the outcome of the vote, and looked to have picked up the pieces in a constructive, unified way looking for the best 'leave' outcome possible. I have more than one remain-voting friend who fit squarely in that category - they accept the result, and they want it upheld in the best possible way for the country. And they are as appalled as I am by the in-fighting and the sabotage attempts from the remain side.
 
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Parklaner81 said:
I have more than one remain-voting friend who fit squarely in that category - they accept the result, and they want it upheld in the best possible way for the country. And they are as appalled as I am by the in-fighting and the sabotage attempts from the remain side.
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Likewise, my office is full of remainers who don't cry about the result they accept it for what it is and like every political or global situation that affects us you just crack on.
 
SpurMeUp said:
So the figures have a margin or error. Doesn't change the reality now or broad picture. EU-RoW was around 50-50. Now its far more from RoW. Who cares that the figures are a bit off here and there? You're criticising but hesitant to commit to anything yourself. What is the something else you favor? Put something forward that you think would improve things.
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Joker.

Have you got a hearing/reading problem?

I think I'll join @scaramanga and give you short thrift.
 
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