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Politics, politics, politics

glorygloryeze said:
I guess it depends on whether one views that Italy's economy not doing well is because of being part of the EU and whether what success the UK economy has had is because of being part of the EU...
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Free and open trade makes people wealthier. Competition, and access to more consumers - economists agree - is a good thing. And the UK is better placed to exploit it than say Italy, which in the south especially is not particularly developed.

It's also accepted - even by folks like Boris - that the EU single market has helped the UK. Allows us to trade freely and exploit this massive market. Boris was saying how there was potential to exploit it further. We probably don't sell half as much into the EU as we could.

Post Brexit vote, you can't deny the UK economy has suffered. And with no clear path forward, some frankly shi11y options on the table, there is more pain to come. Yet you can't tell me what we get back in return from Brexit. We become poorer for what? Nor were you able to answer the questions from 2 pages back. All I care about is being trasparent about these things, if Brexit has a logic, why can't we outline it???
 
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Gutter Boy said:
Free and open trade makes big business wealthier. It's always been a way to exploit people - undercut them and keep them in their place.
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...whereas Communism delivered prosperity? If you look at the UK and say Russia, I think you'll find that the nation with a history of free open trade has wealhier individuals not just business.
 
In the political game its all about least bad option now for May. She's putting all her chips on something which isn't good per say, "but isn't as bad as...". Follow me, becuase the alternative is dire. Desperate blackmail to coerce MPs into backing her? Will it work?
 
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SpurMeUp said:
In the political game its all about least bad option now for May. She's putting all her chips on something which isn't good per say, "but isn't as bad as...". Follow me, becuase the alternative is dire. Desperate blackmail to coerce MPs into backing her? Will it work?
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Seems like she's looking for Parliament to force her into a 2nd referendum situation, so she can't be blamed for "betraying the will of the people" or whatever. Coz if her deal somehow got voted through, the DUP would bring the government down, or the ERG hardcore would split the Tory Party or hardcore Tory Brexit voters would go to UKIP or all of that would happen. So I'm not convinced May really wants her deal to pass, she's about clinging on to the job for as long as possible.
 
Looks like Comrade Corbyn has bottled it then. By calling a vote of no confidence against the PM but not the government, he's able to posture as if he's a proper opposition leader without having to back it up by going to the electorate. Straight out of the Pravda playbook.
 
scaramanga said:
Looks like Comrade Corbyn has bottled it then. By calling a vote of no confidence against the PM but not the government, he's able to posture as if he's a proper opposition leader without having to back it up by going to the electorate. Straight out of the Pravda playbook.
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Not bottled it then. A nice 4 through covers really. It all serves his greater plan - to inherit post-Brexit Britain
 
scaramanga said:
Looks like Comrade Corbyn has bottled it then. By calling a vote of no confidence against the PM but not the government, he's able to posture as if he's a proper opposition leader without having to back it up by going to the electorate. Straight out of the Pravda playbook.
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He can't go to the electorate unless the DUP or a bunch of Tories indicate that they will bring the government down, but so far, they have indicated the opposite. A confidence motion in the PM does allow a possible route to force her to resign whilst keeping the government in place -- this won't happen either. So the ERG think that May shouldn't be leader of the Tory Party but is fine to carry on as PM. They are a strange bunch and they have bungled their chance.

It is all posturing though. Labour have wanted to call a confidence vote in the government if/when May's deal gets voted down. But those pushing for a 2nd referendum want Labour to call a confidence vote in the government ASAP, without regard for the chances of winning, because they just want to push things along and get to the bit where Labour have no choice but to support a 2nd referendum.

With Grieve's amendment, this is probably all just Christmas pantomime anyway. They will vote against May's deal, then Parliament will start on other amendments, with Norway+ or a 2nd referendum as the likeliest outcomes imo.

May just doesn't want to take any responsibility for it. She wants to give Parliament a bag of sh1t to vote for and then say "well, I tried to enact the will of the people *gurn*" and then nasty old Parliament will do the rest. And she won't resign, so is stuck there, with the ERG having shot their load too early.
 
The Tories cancer has finally infected the whole country and the so called opposition has disappeared up its own dogma.
 
the dza said:
Seems like she's looking for Parliament to force her into a 2nd referendum situation, so she can't be blamed for "betraying the will of the people" or whatever. Coz if her deal somehow got voted through, the DUP would bring the government down, or the ERG hardcore would split the Tory Party or hardcore Tory Brexit voters would go to UKIP or all of that would happen. So I'm not convinced May really wants her deal to pass, she's about clinging on to the job for as long as possible.
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Im pretty convinced she is bone headed in wanting the deal to go through, hence pushing the vote on it so late so as to essentially try and force it in.

Im expecting the rest of them to bring it down and get a referendum on the cards.

Its going to get even messier than it is now.

As to Corbyn? I take Scaras stance, seems more like posturing than anything to me. Heaven forbid he might actually do something.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Im pretty convinced she is bone headed in wanting the deal to go through, hence pushing the vote on it so late so as to essentially try and force it in.

Im expecting the rest of them to bring it down and get a referendum on the cards.

Its going to get even messier than it is now.

As to Corbyn? I take Scaras stance, seems more like posturing than anything to me. Heaven forbid he might actually do something.
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Do what? How? Why? He is is in opposition, he does not have the numbers, is not in office and has no responsibilities. I find it passing strange that your attention isn't more focussed on May/the Tories, who do have the numbers along witht the NI Tories (DUP), are in government and do have responsibilities? They are the ones who should be 'doing something.'
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Do what? How? Why? He is is in opposition, he does not have the numbers, is not in office and has no responsibilities. I find it passing strange that your attention isn't more focussed on May/the Tories, who do have the numbers along witht the NI Tories (DUP), are in government and do have responsibilities? They are the ones who should be 'doing something.'
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It's a better style than how the SNP just shriek to express their powerlessness
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Do what? How? Why? He is is in opposition, he does not have the numbers, is not in office and has no responsibilities. I find it passing strange that your attention isn't more focussed on May/the Tories, who do have the numbers along witht the NI Tories (DUP), are in government and do have responsibilities? They are the ones who should be 'doing something.'
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They are the ones fudging it up. There really isnt much that needs saying about them as its all already out there.

He is the opposition. Thats his responsibility, to oppose the stupidity and errors in the incumbent government.

Hes doing nothing but wait for the A-Bomb to go off, so he can inherit the post apocalyptic wasteland.
 
SpurMeUp said:
In the political game its all about least bad option now for May. She's putting all her chips on something which isn't good per say, "but isn't as bad as...". Follow me, becuase the alternative is dire. Desperate blackmail to coerce MPs into backing her? Will it work?
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I want so desperately Corbyn to become prime minister.
He will rooster it up and disappear and then be back to giving rallies at student unions up norf !
 
StephenH said:
I want so desperately Corbyn to become prime minister.
He will rooster it up and disappear and then be back to giving rallies at student unions up norf !
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Not before he ruins a lot of UK businesses (and with them jobs, etc) and fudges us all with his disgusting tax rates.

And let's not forget the socialist ratchet. If he doubles NHS spending, regardless of whether the country can afford it or not, nobody will get elected on a platform of halving NHS spending.
 
the dza said:
He can't go to the electorate unless the DUP or a bunch of Tories indicate that they will bring the government down, but so far, they have indicated the opposite. A confidence motion in the PM does allow a possible route to force her to resign whilst keeping the government in place -- this won't happen either. So the ERG think that May shouldn't be leader of the Tory Party but is fine to carry on as PM. They are a strange bunch and they have bungled their chance.

It is all posturing though. Labour have wanted to call a confidence vote in the government if/when May's deal gets voted down. But those pushing for a 2nd referendum want Labour to call a confidence vote in the government ASAP, without regard for the chances of winning, because they just want to push things along and get to the bit where Labour have no choice but to support a 2nd referendum.

With Grieve's amendment, this is probably all just Christmas pantomime anyway. They will vote against May's deal, then Parliament will start on other amendments, with Norway+ or a 2nd referendum as the likeliest outcomes imo.

May just doesn't want to take any responsibility for it. She wants to give Parliament a bag of sh1t to vote for and then say "well, I tried to enact the will of the people *gurn*" and then nasty old Parliament will do the rest. And she won't resign, so is stuck there, with the ERG having shot their load too early.
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The ERG are right to take the position they have - they started a leadership challenge, lost and now will follow the will of the party.

I also don't think it mattered when they made their move, they were never going to win. Their best candidate is Johnson and he would never get past the first round.
 
scaramanga said:
The ERG are right to take the position they have - they started a leadership challenge, lost and now will follow the will of the party.

I also don't think it mattered when they made their move, they were never going to win. Their best candidate is Johnson and he would never get past the first round.
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I still think the ERG will actually vote for May's deal. They are just holding her feet to the fire till the very last minute. The DUP won't be so malleable though
 
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