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Politics, politics, politics

So after the vote today in parliament it pretty much ends the whole Brexit thing, because no matter what happens those MP's will vote down Mays final offer. So Congratulations to the remain lot, it was pretty much nailed on after Cameron delayed sending the letter to Brussels.

The is no way a dictatorship as benign as the EU would even consider allowing a member state to have any control over any domestic matters.

RIP Democracy.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
So after the vote today in parliament it pretty much ends the whole Brexit thing, because no matter what happens those MP's will vote down Mays final offer. So Congratulations to the remain lot, it was pretty much nailed on after Cameron delayed sending the letter to Brussels.

The is no way a dictatorship as benign as the EU would even consider allowing a member state to have any control over any domestic matters.

RIP Democracy.
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How so? The government won all the votes.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Only by promising a vote meaningful enough to keep the awkward squad in line. The frothing Europhobe may be right; WTO Brexit looks less achievable now, thank the Lords.
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Ahh. Hopefully that's the case.

So what if the government renege on the concessions they have made to the "rebels"? Does it go to the lords again and then come back to the commons, giving the rebels one last go at actually rebelling?

It was a good call of yours by the way, that Tory rebels would fall in line. They seem to think they have done alright, and the Brexit side seem to think the government have just mugged off the rebels, though maybe temporarily. I'm a bit confused by it all to tell you the truth.
 
the dza said:
Ahh. Hopefully that's the case.

So what if the government renege on the concessions they have made to the "rebels"? Does it go to the lords again and then come back to the commons, giving the rebels one last go at actually rebelling?

It was a good call of yours by the way, that Tory rebels would fall in line. They seem to think they have done alright, and the Brexit side seem to think the government have just mugged off the rebels, though maybe temporarily. I'm a bit confused by it all to tell you the truth.
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There are as many goes as it takes until all amendments have been voted on, it’s called “ping pong”. Otherwise, I’m as confused as you. Too many variables.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Only by promising a vote meaningful enough to keep the awkward squad in line. The frothing Europhobe may be right; WTO Brexit looks less achievable now, thank the Lords.
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If that comment was aimed at me, then you still do not understand why 17 million people voted out. Europhobe? I have never hated Europe. Why would I hate the continent I come from. Trade and deal with them sure, just be governed by people we can vote out. The saddest thing is how small minded those on the remain side are and how they just tar everyone that voted leave with them same brush.

Really hope I am still around to see the "project" collapse.
 
the dza said:
How so? The government won all the votes.
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You know politics better then that dazza and you know it.

I like you am a Corbyn man, but I think he is just going to try and make political capital out of defeating the tories rather then do what he has said his whole career and take on the EU.

Sad thing is if as I hope he wins the next election he will not be able to fulfil his election promises because of EU law. He has the chance to build a better Britain but if we are tied to the EU that chance will go.

I do not and will never understand why the EU has been so unflinching with regards negotiating with us. If they had allowed us a control on immigration then the is no chance Brexit would have even been voted for. But why stop a country from going out and doing trade deals with non EU countries as long as anything then sold to other EU countries meet regulations. It is totalitarian and I dont like it as something as a libertarian.
 
If May goes down though, the party members will elect Mogg or a puppet of his as the new PM. That's Soubrey and Clarke's issue - the grassroots are much stronger leavers than than the MPs
 
If the ERG put one of their own on the ballot and they win, the Soubrys can vote against the new administration with a clear conscience, on the grounds that they don’t have much of a democratic mandate.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
If that comment was aimed at me, then you still do not understand why 17 million people voted out. Europhobe? I have never hated Europe. Why would I hate the continent I come from. Trade and deal with them sure, just be governed by people we can vote out. The saddest thing is how small minded those on the remain side are and how they just tar everyone that voted leave with them same brush.

Really hope I am still around to see the "project" collapse.
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Just because you repeat something does not make it true, you have no idea how many of those voting wanted a soft brexit at the time of the vote remaining in the EEA was one of the possible options. The vote was a shambles but the repositioning of what was being voted on post result is pure politics .
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
If that comment was aimed at me, then you still do not understand why 17 million people voted out. Europhobe? I have never hated Europe. Why would I hate the continent I come from. Trade and deal with them sure, just be governed by people we can vote out. The saddest thing is how small minded those on the remain side are and how they just tar everyone that voted leave with them same brush.

Really hope I am still around to see the "project" collapse.
Click to expand...

It’s not as if the UK has a functioning democracy. As GB says, it just takes a few gin-sodden retired stockbrokers to like Rees-Mogg, or some mischievous Internet trots to champion Corbyn, and the vast majority of people are left with Hobson’s choice. At least MEPs are elected by PR and at least the Commission is held to account effectively by the CoM.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
You know politics better then that dazza and you know it.

I like you am a Corbyn man, but I think he is just going to try and make political capital out of defeating the tories rather then do what he has said his whole career and take on the EU.

Sad thing is if as I hope he wins the next election he will not be able to fulfil his election promises because of EU law. He has the chance to build a better Britain but if we are tied to the EU that chance will go.

I do not and will never understand why the EU has been so unflinching with regards negotiating with us. If they had allowed us a control on immigration then the is no chance Brexit would have even been voted for. But why stop a country from going out and doing trade deals with non EU countries as long as anything then sold to other EU countries meet regulations. It is totalitarian and I dont like it as something as a libertarian.
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I agree with the bit in bold. But from the EU side of things, why would they give Britain what they want and then have all the other member states knocking on the door saying they want the same deal? This is why they are not flexible in negotiations imo, it is to protect the integrity of the organisation as a whole. And then add to that they know we have a weak government that doesn't hold many cards in the negotiations. We're the ones leaving, they go "ok fine, these are the terms for countries outside of the EU/Single Market, goodbye and goodluck."

As for Corbyn, he only wants to take on the EU in a certain way I think. He doesn't give two phucks about immigration imo (and I don't either really, even though I do get some of the arguments against how EU migration has gone). I think that the concessions he would ultimately like to get from the EU are probably gettable, as he'd leave freedom of movement on the table imo. But that's just my best guest, I don't know what I'm on about for the most part.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
If the ERG put one of their own on the ballot and they win, the Soubrys can vote against the new administration with a clear conscience, on the grounds that they don’t have much of a democratic mandate.
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There doesn't need to be another vote now A50 has been inacted. Inaction would just bring about WTO on 1 April.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
It’s not as if the UK has a functioning democracy. As GB says, it just takes a few gin-sodden retired stockbrokers to like Rees-Mogg, or some mischievous Internet trots to champion Corbyn, and the vast majority of people are left with Hobson’s choice. At least MEPs are elected by PR and at least the Commission is held to account effectively by the CoM.
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As one of those internet Trots, I do agree with you on this. We need to change our electoral system and separate out the factions of the parties into their own individual parties, and let them then form formal coalitions and go from there.
 
Gutter Boy said:
There doesn't need to be another vote now A50 has been inacted. Inaction would just bring about WTO on 1 April.
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There will be chances for parliament to scupper WTO without needing to subject a hypothetical Moggite administration to a vote of confidence. It helps that the Speaker is on the side of the angels and would allow a “humble address” if necessary.
 
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