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Circus ManUnitus - Erik's At The Wheel

Players now expect a manager to be a coach too. Someone who identifies their weaknesses and helps them improve
Maureens strength was always taking the best players and removing all the pressure by putting it on him, publicly at least
He would also pull off the odd tactical master stroke of not losing the big games
At United he actually hasn’t got the best players and he can’t take pressure off if their not actually performing... the latest rant is to try and convince people their better than they were
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Players now expect a manager to be a coach too. Someone who identifies their weaknesses and helps them improve
Maureens strength was always taking the best players and removing all the pressure by putting it on him, publicly at least
He would also pull off the odd tactical master stroke of not losing the big games
At United he actually hasn’t got the best players and he can’t take pressure off if their not actually performing... the latest rant is to try and convince people their better than they were
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I think thats unfair, there is a long list of players who improved considerably under him, Lampard and Drogba immediately spring to mind.
 
galeforce said:
I think thats unfair, there is a long list of players who improved considerably under him, Lampard and Drogba immediately spring to mind.
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Technically???

Weren’t they both performing to a very high standard before? Thought Drogba was top scorer in France and had been performing in Europe.

Similarly lampard has been playing very well and scoring plenty under Ranieri

What Mou did was bring in even better played around them and take the pressure off so they could perform even better. That’s not coaching (although he may well have done some) but it was brilliant management

Plus of course ther is natural development of the players
 
Whatever Manchester United win or don't win, the club is in a permanent state of rancour and friction.
Mourinho has recent history at his clubs that is almost cancerous, he in the end has to be cut out.
 
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galeforce said:
I think thats unfair, there is a long list of players who improved considerably under him, Lampard and Drogba immediately spring to mind.
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That was quite a long time ago now, I don't follow foreign football that much but off the top of my head Sneijder played his best football under him but I cant think of any others he has improved since then. Even Matic he sold him and bought him back.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Mourinho's management style is really interesting. The Chelsea players from his first run there would line up to say what a great man manager he was, how they'd run through walls for him. Did he act like this with them? Was it part of it, or has something in him changed?

Maybe in the last 10 years, with the rise of social media and ever more money in the game, players really are different. And Mourinho's answer, rather than adapt, is to double down on a confrontational style. Maybe it's the whole 'us vs them' siege mentality he is looking to create, but at least with Chelsea, he had enough players on his side who could realistically be described in the 'Us' camp.

With Shaw it does bear the hallmarks of quite an abusive relationship. Slagging off in the media, then saying there is no better left back, then dropping him, then playing him but slagging him off again. I guess Jose is just annoyed that after the praise, maybe Shaw's level dropped again. But it is really interesting to see the way he is handling it all now, because I really don't think he used to be like this. Especially when you have managers like Poch and Klopp, who treat young players with the care they deserve, it shines a light on what Mourinho is doing. Even Conte, who seems to be one of the most intense and demanding coaches around, wouldn't ball out a young player like Mourinho is doing, and he's definitely had the opportunity to do so with Christensen or Morata.

Jose has been so successful that I do think maybe this is all part of his plan, maybe he is a psychological genius and given time and patience it will all come together for him. But really, the football they play is terrible, and he's barely happy with any of his squad. Maybe the game really has moved on from the point where his methods would be ultimately successful, and now he does just look like a caricature of a previously successful coach.
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I agree with much of this, and very much what @Raziel said in reply too.

For me Mourinho isnt in any job for the long term, in the way that is obvious with for example Pochettino.

Thats not to say Poch will be here long term, but the way he operates is from that POV.

Mourinho goes in, creates a siege mentality, and operates under such an intensity he burns things out in a few seasons.

His "Them against us" becomes "Him against everyone" - at which point he has lost the players and all else.

I also think there is much to the point he doesnt actually coach or improve players. He doesnt really build anything, other than that mentality.
 
StephenH said:
Whatever Manchester United win or don't win, the club is in a permanent state of rancour and friction.
Mourinho has recent history at his clubs that is almost cancerous, he in the end has to be cut out.
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The transition post SAF has been an utter disaster. So obvious there is no vision for the long term, quite amazing that after SAF they have chosen 3 managers who play some of the most mind numbing, least attractive, most pragmatic football with Moyes, LVG & Mourinho.

We can only hope the Scum post Wenger will be as bad.
 
Raziel said:
The transition post SAF has been an utter disaster. So obvious there is no vision for the long term, quite amazing that after SAF they have chosen 3 managers who play some of the most mind numbing, least attractive, most pragmatic football with Moyes, LVG & Mourinho.

We can only hope the Scum post Wenger will be as bad.
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Wenger to replace HoMo and he can go to Arsenal :D
 
LemonadeMoney said:
Exactly, they may be boring to watch, but it's been effective and they are higher in the league than us.
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Indeed and so are Liverpool, its funny how so many Spurs fans keep going on about how crap Jose, Klopp are as managers and how poor those teams are, yet they are above us in the table. Our fans are no different from other teams we all look at our teams and compere others through tinted glasses.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I agree with much of this, and very much what @Raziel said in reply too.

For me Mourinho isnt in any job for the long term, in the way that is obvious with for example Pochettino.

Thats not to say Poch will be here long term, but the way he operates is from that POV.

Mourinho goes in, creates a siege mentality, and operates under such an intensity he burns things out in a few seasons.

His "Them against us" becomes "Him against everyone" - at which point he has lost the players and all else.

I also think there is much to the point he doesnt actually coach or improve players. He doesnt really build anything, other than that mentality.
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Of course, and he knows it. He’s even still staying at the Lowry isn’t he?
 
Manchester United have some very decent players, but they are capable of much better than they are showing under the current manager. The performances are constipated!
 
parklane1 said:
Indeed and so are Liverpool, its funny how so many Spurs fans keep going on about how crap Jose, Klopp are as managers and how poor those teams are, yet they are above us in the table. Our fans are no different from other teams we all look at our teams and compere others through tinted glasses.
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Mate, you are picking a point in time

- Over the period Klopp & Mourinho have been in charge of thier clubs, Poch has out performed them, by season, and I'm sure in total points/GD/everything to this moment.
- This despite significantly more gross spend, and both clubs having 2X or better wage structure
- How a team plays vs. points they pick up in any given short stretch is usually an indicator of what long term result is (Manure has been lucky, Pool less so, Salad has been a big factor for them)

I've said it before, you are measure by return on investment - United has one of the supposedly elite 3 managers in the world, de Gea, Matic, Pogba, Zlatan, Sanchez, Mata, Lukaku, Carrick, Martial, Lingard, Blind, etc. If they manage to finish 2-3 points ahead of us in table having spent 300M on players, with 3X wages and playing football that makes my eyes bleed, I won't say that's an achievement.

Lets be clear (and fans may not like it)

- Poch's goal at the beginning of the season is to secure a CL spot = we still have our fate in our hands
- Pool (for last 20+ years) and United are supposed to be winning the PL and/or deep run in CL = not even close, neither of them were ever at the races.

The arguments against both managers are quite logical
- Jose is a wrecking ball that gets short term results at the cost of significant drama (works for some clubs)
- If Klopp had spent a little more time focusing on defense with Salad's season they would have been in the running for title (just naïve, missed opportunity)

I'm not saying Poch is beyond reproach, I'm just not sure expecting results greater than we have based on wages/squad/expenditure is realistic for us, where for those two, you could easily say they should be further.
 
Liverpool are a well coached, good team. Utd are the worst team in the top 5, but they have an amazing goal-keeper who wins them more points than their play deserves. It can't be coincidence that every time I watch Utd play, they look so average. What sums them up for me is when they played Arsenal away this season -- Arsenal would have scored 5 or 6 if not for De Gea, Utd had a few attacks from Arsenal mistakes and won the game. If you swapped the goal-keepers for Liverpool and Utd, Utd would be struggling to finish above Arsenal imo.

Then factor in the insane money Utd have spent to be a team reliant on their goal-keeper.
 
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