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Moussa Sissoko

I find it hilarious that some keeps banging that Sissoko is not good enough to be in the squad, not to mention to be on the pitch, even so, Poch continues to pick him and have him in the squad. How can he, who is one of the most recognized manager in the modern fotball, who see Sissoko train in principal every day, be so wrong? How dare Poch to think that he knows better than all those hobbymanagers?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
If I had the patience Id rewatch the first 10 games and show you the instances it happened. It was most definitely "a thing". It was clear as day.
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I saw a few occasions where our players chose not to give it to Lamela at the weekend despite him demanding the ball to feet, It is normal for this to happen in a football match. If I had a thing about Lamela not being good enough for us then I could easily deduce that the players are choosing not to pass to him. I think the only midfield player in our team who always gets the ball when he demands it in some space is Eriksen. That is because he is our best player and therefore the team are looking to get him on the ball. Indeed I would imagine that Pochettino instructs the team to do this.

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
The same people over egging his performance as "great", talking about him as if he has really arrived as a player and generally being rather OTT about a performance that was - fine? good? (How can you tell when Swansea were so poor?) These are the same people railing against anyone who has anything negative to say about Sissoko, and in particular in any perceived exaggeration in that criticism.
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Interesting that in this instance you choose to pass off being able to tell whether somebody performed well due to how poor Swansea were and yet in the Lamela thread you state (exact words):
"Thought he was excellent today. Against a team sitting so deep, I thought his performance was top."
No qualifying remark about Swansea being so poor. Just a big thumbs up for a player that you like.

I commented before about you perhaps having a bit of unconscious bias where Sissoko was concerned. This is perhaps evidence of this.
 
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Olle73 said:
I find it hilarious that some keeps banging that Sissoko is not good enough to be in the squad, not to mention to be on the pitch, even so, Poch continues to pick him and have him in the squad. How can he, who is one of the most recognized manager in the modern fotball, who see Sissoko train in principal every day, be so wrong? How dare Poch to think that he knows better than all those hobbymanagers?
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When you have nailed your colours to a certain mast it is difficult to climb down and say "OK, I was wrong.... He can actually control the ball, can pass the ball, he can play a valuable part in our squad".

I thought Sissoko was poor last season and would've been happy to have sold him or even loaned him out last summer. However I am pleased that he stayed as I think he has played a reasonable part in us having what is, so far, a decent season. Thankfully most posters on here have seen the improvement and appreciate the job that he has done for us this season.
 
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Finney Is Back said:
I saw a few occasions where our players chose not to give it to Lamela at the weekend despite him demanding the ball to feet, It is normal for this to happen in a football match. If I had a thing about Lamela not being good enough for us then I could easily deduce that the players are choosing not to pass to him. I think the only midfield player in our team who always gets the ball when he demands it in some space is Eriksen. That is because he is our best player and therefore the team are looking to get him on the ball. Indeed I would imagine that Pochettino instructs the team to do this.
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I know where you are going with it, but youre wrong.

There were completely clear instances of the player shaping to pass to a white shirt, seeing Sissoko, and checking back.

As I said, it was shocking at the time.

You might not have seen it, and thats fine - but I can assure it happened and Im not the only one to have said so.


Finney Is Back said:
Interesting that in this instance you choose to pass off being able to tell whether somebody performed well due to how poor Swansea were and yet in the Lamela thread you state (exact words):
"Thought he was excellent today. Against a team sitting so deep, I thought his performance was top."
No qualifying remark about Swansea being so poor. Just a big thumbs up for a player that you like.

I commented before about you perhaps having a bit of unconscious bias where Sissoko was concerned. This is perhaps evidence of this.
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And again, not at all.

Lamela was excellent. Im no particular fan of his either. Id say I fall on the side of I like him, but I find him disappointing - there is more to come from him and its frustrating it isnt delivered regularly enough.

On the day he was excellent, alongside Eriksen he was our stand out player. In an area of the pitch that was congested. I thought it was a real leadership performance. Regardless of the opposition it really was good.

Sissoko, as Ive repeatedly said - was fine. He was also hardly opposed in his position, so how easy is it to judge? And, while you are quoting me, youll notice I didnt single him out in this respect. I actually included him with most of the team in the same assessment.

There is no unconscious bias, as much as its convenient for you to try and inform my posts as such. It doesnt exist.


Finney Is Back said:
When you have nailed your colours to a certain mast it is difficult to climb down and say "OK, I was wrong.... He can actually control the ball, can pass the ball, he can play a valuable part in our squad". I thought Sissoko was poor last season and would've been happy to have sold him or even loaned him out last summer. However I am pleased that he stayed as I think he has played a reasonable part in us having what is, so far, a decent season. Thankfully most posters on here have seen the improvement and appreciate the job that he has done for us this season.
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And, like above, absolutely not.

I havent backed myself into a corner at all. I have lost count of the times Ive said Id love to be proven wrong.

I have never said "He can literally never control a ball", nobody has, so the tone of your argument screams straw man - please stop it. Its silly.

His control is often poor. Thats a fact. Thats an observation. Thats not slagging him, theres a difference.

Im starting to think every statement made to you needs to be absolutely qualified to stop you posting against arguments that do not exist.

This season? He is better. Thats not the same as good, and thats not the same as valuable.
 
Ah the old "I'd love to be proven wrong" line.... Only to still be banging on about the same stuff continuously instead of simply saying "He is a better player than I thought and he has proven me wrong".

You'll feel better when you do it mate... Honest! It will be a weight off of your mind.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Ah the old "I'd love to be proven wrong" line.... Only to still be banging on about the same stuff continuously instead of simply saying "He is a better player than I thought and he has proven me wrong".

You'll feel better when you do it mate... Honest! It will be a weight off of your mind.
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Youve got the wrong end of the stick here mate, I can assure you.

Ive no investment in being right on a message board. If he really performs, and really proves me wrong then Spurs are much better off - and for that Ill be genuinely delighted.

He hasnt proven me wrong though, has he? He has improved - I have never denied. I still dont think he is good enough for us though, and Im yet to see him perform in a way to convince me otherwise (or the potential for otherwise).

It seems to me the issue is in that some people see he improved and equate it to being actually good.

For me he isnt there yet, not even close. He's kind of Stambouli level to my eye, if you want a barometer.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Youve got the wrong end of the stick here mate, I can assure you.

Ive no investment in being right on a message board. If he really performs, and really proves me wrong then Spurs are much better off - and for that Ill be genuinely delighted.

He hasnt proven me wrong though, has he? He has improved - I have never denied. I still dont think he is good enough for us though, and Im yet to see him perform in a way to convince me otherwise (or the potential for otherwise).

It seems to me the issue is in that some people see he improved and equate it to being actually good.

For me he isnt there yet, not even close. He's kind of Stambouli level to my eye, if you want a barometer.
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For somebody who has no investment in being right on a message board you an arf do seem to put a lot of time into replying to anyone praising Sissoko to disagree with them. ;)

Come on matey.... Come out of the closet... I'll even give you a sentence that you can cut and paste in to make it easier for you:
"He is a decent member of our squad and has proven himself to be better than I gave him credit for".
 
Thats more to do with the constant attacks against anyone who dare criticise him, along with the above mentioned double standards. That and I just cant digest some of the absolute revisionism that goes on around him.

He has proven himself to be better than I gave him credit for. Ive never denied. Ive said many times he has improved.

I refute that he is a decent member of the squad though, I still dont think he is good enough to be in it.
 
Finney Is Back said:
When you have nailed your colours to a certain mast it is difficult to climb down and say "OK, I was wrong....
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But if you don't, you have lost all your credibility to have an opinion about the specific matters. There are a few on this forum that have forced themself into that box and which I completely ignore when it comes to having an opinon on the said players.
 
@nayimfromthehalfwayline , when I’m asking about last season, it’s because I’m making a distinction between saying ‘Sissoko has a bad 16-17’, which is true, and saying ‘He was terrible/shocking/awful all of that season’ and then adding to it that he has ‘only just started to prove he isn’t a total disaster’, which also isn’t true.

There were a few early games (after no pre-season, in a new team and a new system) where he was terrible. Where people were literally saying he couldn’t trap a ball, and literally saying he was the worst player they had ever seen in a Spurs shirt. And given the level of those performances, it wasn’t entirely unfair criticism. But that image of Sissoko, generally speaking to a lot of Spurs fans, has stuck. There was no desire to give him time, no desire to see what would happen after he had a full pre season, or adapted to a system, or got played in a position that would suit him within it. People didn’t want him, he cost a lot, and he sucked in those first few games.

But to say he was bad, to that standard, for the rest of the season just isn’t true. Because we was really, really awful, and it would be unfair to say he continued to be that bad. He deservedly couldn’t get back into the starting 11, but when he did play he looked like a normal player, kind of like the one we see today, just without a run of games.

This season, he’s more than proved worthy of a place as a squad player, and he hasn’t ‘only just’ started performing like he isn’t terrible. Everton away, West Ham away, Burnley away, Madrid away and at home. He’s been playing a good role all season, it’s just now a lot more people are willing to praise him for it.

But it is those early games that clearly were the nail in the coffin in terms of his rep for a lot of Spurs fans, who never wanted to give him a chance after that. But he wasn’t as bad as those early games ever since them (except Leicester away this season), and it is grossly unfair to claim he has only just started performing. He’s been doing a good job for a squad player for months now.
 
And the players not passing to him thing, is just nonsense. To add to @Finney Is Back ’s point on that, there is an article going round where Pep and Poch talk / are spoken of as always preferring to drive a pass into the centre if they can. Part of their philosophy is to give the centre backs something to think about as quickly as they can, because if you commit them you have the route to goal easiest. So I often see, in every single game we have, whether Sissoko is playing or not, our players facing one way, checking back and looking to drive the ball through the middle. Only if it really isn’t on do we go wide, and we only usually bring the full backs in with a penetrative pass right at the byline, so the attackers have a chance to get in the box.

It happens in every game. I can see why people who are trying to prove Sissoko is terrible would try and use that against him, but it isn’t a Sissoko thing, it’s a part of our possession which happens whether he’s on the pitch or not. Winks or Dembele look outside, if it’s too easy, they check back inside and try and commit the opposition centre backs. That check back happens every game multiple times. I bet if you looked for it you could make examples of the players ‘refusing to pass to Moura’ on Saturday, but that wouldn’t be what is happening.
 
Sissoko had a very good game (compared to his previous games for us) against poor opposition playing in a competition that to the owners of Swansea is of less importance than the league (as evidenced by their team selection). Hopefully he will gain in confidence and continue to be a valuable part of the squad (he is clearly valuable because Poch picks him and uses him). I hope he can take that confidence to whatever club buys him after the World Cup and wish his replacement all the best playing for us.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
@nayimfromthehalfwayline , when I’m asking about last season, it’s because I’m making a distinction between saying ‘Sissoko has a bad 16-17’, which is true, and saying ‘He was terrible/shocking/awful all of that season’ and then adding to it that he has ‘only just started to prove he isn’t a total disaster’, which also isn’t true.

There were a few early games (after no pre-season, in a new team and a new system) where he was terrible. Where people were literally saying he couldn’t trap a ball, and literally saying he was the worst player they had ever seen in a Spurs shirt. And given the level of those performances, it wasn’t entirely unfair criticism. But that image of Sissoko, generally speaking to a lot of Spurs fans, has stuck. There was no desire to give him time, no desire to see what would happen after he had a full pre season, or adapted to a system, or got played in a position that would suit him within it. People didn’t want him, he cost a lot, and he sucked in those first few games.

But to say he was bad, to that standard, for the rest of the season just isn’t true. Because we was really, really awful, and it would be unfair to say he continued to be that bad. He deservedly couldn’t get back into the starting 11, but when he did play he looked like a normal player, kind of like the one we see today, just without a run of games.

This season, he’s more than proved worthy of a place as a squad player, and he hasn’t ‘only just’ started performing like he isn’t terrible. Everton away, West Ham away, Burnley away, Madrid away and at home. He’s been playing a good role all season, it’s just now a lot more people are willing to praise him for it.

But it is those early games that clearly were the nail in the coffin in terms of his rep for a lot of Spurs fans, who never wanted to give him a chance after that. But he wasn’t as bad as those early games ever since them (except Leicester away this season), and it is grossly unfair to claim he has only just started performing. He’s been doing a good job for a squad player for months now.
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You are putting a hell of a lot of words in peoples mouths there, and then arguing against it. Its a straw man situation, setting up an imaginary argument to which you can then respond.

And there is a very selective nature to what you choose to remember or respond too.

This is why I think youre simply on a mission, and have lost sense of reality with this player.

I thought he was awful for that season. Its a plain statement. I could expand and say completely utterly awful to start, and just normal awful to finish, or even offer a game by game analysis of his awfulness - but it really shouldnt be necessary. I thought he was awful and I stand by it.

This season he has had a couple of good games, a couple of "functional" games, and otherwise been poor again, for me.

As poor as last season? No. As poor now, as the beginning of this season? No. Good enough? Also no.

I simply do not see the player you so enthusiastically describe. Literally, straight after the game, Ill see you posting and wonder what the hell you are smoking.

It comes down to one of two things, IMO.

1) Fundamentally you are really easily pleased with a player, or
2) You've argued to such extremes you wont allow yourself to see anything negative in him, even when its right in front of you.

The irony being, of course, you are also the one calling for objectivity and for people to not exaggerate etc, and making accusations of people not being able to back down from an opinion.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
And the players not passing to him thing, is just nonsense. To add to @Finney Is Back ’s point on that, there is an article going round where Pep and Poch talk / are spoken of as always preferring to drive a pass into the centre if they can. Part of their philosophy is to give the centre backs something to think about as quickly as they can, because if you commit them you have the route to goal easiest. So I often see, in every single game we have, whether Sissoko is playing or not, our players facing one way, checking back and looking to drive the ball through the middle. Only if it really isn’t on do we go wide, and we only usually bring the full backs in with a penetrative pass right at the byline, so the attackers have a chance to get in the box.

It happens in every game. I can see why people who are trying to prove Sissoko is terrible would try and use that against him, but it isn’t a Sissoko thing, it’s a part of our possession which happens whether he’s on the pitch or not. Winks or Dembele look outside, if it’s too easy, they check back inside and try and commit the opposition centre backs. That check back happens every game multiple times. I bet if you looked for it you could make examples of the players ‘refusing to pass to Moura’ on Saturday, but that wouldn’t be what is happening.
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IT.IS.NOT.NONSENSE.

I saw it. Im not the only one. Just because you did not see it, it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

The instance I most clearly recall was Eriksen. Coming in from the left. Sissoko runs onto the CB. Eriksen shapes to pass to him (seen the shirt) looks up and then instantly checks back straight into a cul-de-sac. I wish I could remember the specific game because I could show it to you.

I assure you, it happened. And not in a "he doesnt understand the game/his bias is informing him/he misunderstood what happened" way, but in a "holy fudge that player clearly did not want to pass to him" way.

It was clear as day, and as I said - shocking.

It wasnt the only time either.

That all being said - Ive also recognised it has stopped now. It doesnt mean it didnt happen, only that it doesnt happen now.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Interesting, as this is exactly what I think about your opinions on the player.
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Difference is - I know you are wrong ;O) I havent a clue where BOL is coming from and thats about all the only thing makes sense.

I can stand by eveything Ive said. It stacks up.

Funny how I put it out there in black and white what I think of him, strengths/weaknesses - and not one person contests it.

But they do call me a liar for describing a situation I saw multiple times, while accusing me of bias in my thinking, while trying to tell me Sissoko is somehow a great player for us...
 
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