"Champions of 3rd place, we know what we are"

[Spur of the moment]

We've lost once at 'home' this season. We have drawn too many games we should win which isnt the first time this has been an issue. You can claim we aren't playing at home all you like, when you have 70,000 plus fans supporting you on a pitch thats a real advantage no matter where you are playing....

You are right but where Wembley is concerned other factors surely come into it, and this would have been more pronounced at the start of the season.

70k or no, it certainly does not feel like home, and that's because it isn't. At the start of the season it was all still relatively unfamiliar both to the players and the fans. To some extent our results both last season and at the start of this, certainly reflected that. The moment you acknowledge that playing at home, ie your real home offers an advantage, you must then also concede that playing in an unfamiliar surrounding that you are obliged to call your temporary home cannot quite be the same thing. You only had to listen to the disjointed / fragmented chanting around the stadium to get an idea of the effect it has had.

Whereas to visiting teams you would expect Wembley to present that much more of a special occasion, a once off and one they would want to rise to. Yes it can also work the other way for some but imo it surely remains a factor.

The fact that our Wembley results are steadily improving over time tends also to reinforce the suggestion that we are now at last getting a feel for the place. Hopefully that will continue to improve as the season goes on.

We'll then have to start all over again next season when we'll need to refamiliarise ourselves with WHL and make another completely different stadium start to feel like home.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I was replying to Jurgen saying Liverpool are a decent side and a threat to us, and if we finish ahead of them we've done well. What part of any of that is incorrect?

I was partially commenting on the other posts from the last couple of pages as well, I don’t know how to multi quote. It’s the general sentiment I was getting from you and one or two others, is that not correct then?

 

[harr1984]

Well yes you can because its a fact

And applying context is not the same as looking for excuses - especially in this scenario where we are playing in a temporary home and pretty much any non Spurs fan would have said we'd likely to suffer

The facts are as I keep telling you we have over 70,000 fans supporting us each game at Wembley - please tell me anywhere in the world where an away team has this? We have lost one game at Wembley, again please tell me when we go on a run like that away from home? Why doesnt our actual away record read like that if we're just playing away from home? You yourself just called it our temporary home, which is exactly what it is! We would probably have a marginally better record if playing at WHL but that is all.....

 

[harr1984]

You are right but where Wembley is concerned other factors surely come into it, and this would have been more pronounced at the start of the season.

70k or no, it certainly does not feel like home, and that's because it isn't. At the start of the season it was all still relatively unfamiliar both to the players and the fans. To some extent our results both last season and at the start of this, certainly reflected that. The moment you acknowledge that playing at home, ie your real home offers an advantage, you must then also concede that playing in an unfamiliar surrounding that you are obliged to call your temporary home cannot quite be the same thing. You only had to listen to the disjointed / fragmented chanting around the stadium to get an idea of the effect it has had.

Whereas to visiting teams you would expect Wembley to present that much more of a special occasion, a once off and one they would want to rise to. Yes it can also work the other way for some but imo it surely remains a factor.

The fact that our Wembley results are steadily improving over time tends also to reinforce the suggestion that we are now at last getting a feel for the place. Hopefully that will continue to improve as the season goes on.

We'll then have to start all over again next season when we'll need to refamiliarise ourselves with WHL and make another completely different stadium start to feel like home.

Never said we are or would be as good at Wembley or feels like being at WHL - but it is still closer to us being at home, than it is us playing away....

 

[billyiddo]

The facts are as I keep telling you we have over 70,000 fans supporting us each game at Wembley - please tell me anywhere in the world where an away team has this? We have lost one game at Wembley, again please tell me when we go on a run like that away from home? Why doesnt our actual away record read like that if we're just playing away from home? You yourself just called it our temporary home, which is exactly what it is! We would probably have a marginally better record if playing at WHL but that is all.....

What is the relevance of 70k exactly and how many games have you been to this season if you think the atmosphere has been anything like the supportive one you are describing? Its usually deathly silence and moans and groans for the majority of the game barring the CL games and the Liverpool game.

We have lost home advantage, that is a fact - playing in front of 70k rather than 36k is not proven to be any kind of on the field advatage as far as im aware so what your point is exactly i dont really know.

You cant really split things home v away like that as the whole season is disrupted by not having our usual home ground.

 

[harr1984]

What is the relevance of 70k exactly and how many games have you been to this season if you think the atmosphere has been anything like the supportive one you are describing? Its usually deathly silence and moans and groans for the majority of the game barring the CL games and the Liverpool game.

We have lost home advantage, that is a fact - playing in front of 70k rather than 36k is not proven to be any kind of on the field advatage as far as im aware so what your point is exactly i dont really know.

You cant really split things home v away like that as the whole season is disrupted by not having our usual home ground.

Well what is the relevance of anyone having a home advantage if having tens of thousands of fans more cheering on your team than the opposition isnt an advantage? Ive been to plenty of games at Wembley and at WHL and yes the atmosphere at Wembley is usually poor except for the big games - but guess what, so was the atmosphere at the majority of games at WHL too.

If you think we would have been well clear of everyone bar City had we been at WHL then good for you. But this whole debate came up beacause of suggestions we are the second best team in the league this season, and like it or not this season involves us playing our games at Wembley and right now there is no evidence we are better than any of those ahead of us....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I know people on here have some weird, kinky irrational hatred of Liverpool but are we really incapable of admitting they are a decent side and are a very serious threat to our top 4 hopes?

Funny, because Ive been detecting a weird, kinky, irrational need to talk up teams like Liverpool beyond reason.

I kind of get it, its laying the groundwork for the disappointment people expect later. If they spend the season talking up other teams, and then that team finishes ahead of us, well its ok because we werent getting our hopes up were we?

I dont think anyone doubts Liverpool as a threat to the top 4, they are. We have a 6 into 4 equation (5 into 3?) and they are part of it.

That said, the weaknesses they have mean they wont be chasing the top of that pack, IMO - and plenty seem to agree that they arent the be all and end all in this fight.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We'll then have to start all over again next season when we'll need to refamiliarise ourselves with WHL and make another completely different stadium start to feel like home.

This is the thing I was thinking reading your post.

WHL2 is much a better design than Wembley, fans closer to the pitch, the kop etc, and it is in Tottenham with old routines returning, but its still going to take time to settle in and make it ours...

 

[billyiddo]

Well what is the relevance of anyone having a home advantage if having tens of thousands of fans more cheering on your team than the opposition isnt an advantage? Ive been to plenty of games at Wembley and at WHL and yes the atmosphere at Wembley is usually poor except for the big games - but guess what, so was the atmosphere at the majority of games at WHL too.

If you think we would have been well clear of everyone bar City had we been at WHL then good for you. But this whole debate came up beacause of suggestions we are the second best team in the league this season, and like it or not this season involves us playing our games at Wembley and right now there is no evidence we are better than any of those ahead of us....

Routine and familiarity for the team are the principal reasons for home advantage - not the number of fans in attendance, needing to point that out makes me wonder if i am wasting my time tbh

No you have misconstrued the point i was making if you think the argument is who is performing as the second best team in the league this season - of course the only thinh to go on there is the table HOWEVER the point being made was that we are at or at least were at a disadvatage (whether you agree or not) and if we can perform to the level we have shown ourselves able to over the past two seasons then we can look to close a bloody 3 point gap over the remainder of the season on the three sides above us.

 

[tynesidespur]

I can see us beating United and Arsenal and losing at Liverpool and Chelsea like we nearly always do. Means we have to pretty much win every other game in the league which to be fair we are more than capable of doing.

I think its too early to make this sort of a call.
Once we get the other side of the Utd/Liverpool/Arse games we'll have a better idea of what we need to do.

If we're either in or around the top 4 (within 4-5 points) we still have a great chance as we'll only have 2 top 6 games left in the season.
At the moment our points total is slightly skewed because the others have all played at least 1 top 6 opponent.

Plus teams are dropping points - look at Chelsea and Arsenal this weekend - United at home to Southampton & Burnley. Nothing is guaranteed - a long way to go yet.

 

[FatBloke]

You are right but where Wembley is concerned other factors surely come into it, and this would have been more pronounced at the start of the season.

70k or no, it certainly does not feel like home, and that's because it isn't. At the start of the season it was all still relatively unfamiliar both to the players and the fans. To some extent our results both last season and at the start of this, certainly reflected that. The moment you acknowledge that playing at home, ie your real home offers an advantage, you must then also concede that playing in an unfamiliar surrounding that you are obliged to call your temporary home cannot quite be the same thing. You only had to listen to the disjointed / fragmented chanting around the stadium to get an idea of the effect it has had.

Whereas to visiting teams you would expect Wembley to present that much more of a special occasion, a once off and one they would want to rise to. Yes it can also work the other way for some but imo it surely remains a factor.

The fact that our Wembley results are steadily improving over time tends also to reinforce the suggestion that we are now at last getting a feel for the place. Hopefully that will continue to improve as the season goes on.

We'll then have to start all over again next season when we'll need to refamiliarise ourselves with WHL and make another completely different stadium start to feel like home.

I agree with a lot of this post. There are more factors at work than the size of the crowd.

Whether we've got 70k or 34k home fans, the fact is that we should have more people singing our players' names. The singing may not be as orchestrated as at WHL, but that's irrelevant -- it's "lots of home fans" versus "lots of home fans".

So what else? There are the pitch dimensions. Our lads will be training on a pitch the same size as the Wembley one, but it's still different. 5 yards either way is a huge difference at this level.

Apart from the pitch's dimensions, there are its surroundings. All the other visual cues, e.g. subconscious markers taken from where you are in relation to the dugout, the angle of a stand, etc. How a player knows where the goal is without looking, how he knows when he's nearing the touchline. When a high ball's going to get lost in the lights. All that takes getting used to.

And lastly, as Spur of the Moment said, it's the fact that many opposing teams will be inspired by playing at Wembley. You could argue that the really top class players won't be -- I mean, the likes of the Bernabeu, Anfield, Old Trafford and so on aren't exactly brick little stadia -- but a journeymen playing for Huddersfield or Brighton might up his game. As might our CL opponents.

It's not a massive change, esp. at this stage in the season, but I can understand why our early home form wasn't all that.

Plus, we were massively spoilt last season. You're not going to go undefeated at home every season!

 

[harr1984]

Routine and familiarity for the team are the principal reasons for home advantage - not the number of fans in attendance, needing to point that out makes me wonder if i am wasting my time tbh

No you have misconstrued the point i was making if you think the argument is who is performing as the second best team in the league this season - of course the only thinh to go on there is the table HOWEVER the point being made was that we are at or at least were at a disadvatage (whether you agree or not) and if we can perform to the level we have shown ourselves able to over the past two seasons then we can look to close a bloody 3 point gap over the remainder of the season on the three sides above us.

I never said there wasnt any sort of disadvantage, but I take exception to claiming we are simply playing away when at Wembley. We COULD close a three point gap, just as those above could pull further away, its not like we are a few games in we are nicely into the second half of the season and are where we are not by fluke. Lets hope Wanyama and Toby returning will boost our hopes....

 

[billyiddo]

I never said there wasnt any sort of disadvantage, but I take exception to claiming we are simply playing away when at Wembley. We COULD close a three point gap, just as those above could pull further away, its not like we are a few games in we are nicely into the second half of the season and are where we are not by fluke. Lets hope Wanyama and Toby returning will boost our hopes....

Well that just sounds like semantics to me if what your issue is with is how ive described the disadvantage rather than the diasadvantage itself?

 

[harr1984]

Well that just sounds like semantics to me if what your issue is with is how ive described the disadvantage rather than the diasadvantage itself?

Yes and no - I agree there is a small level of disadvantage to playing at Wembley vs WHL, however I dont agree as to it being like us playing away everytime we're at Wembley. We are far more familiar with Wembley pitch than anyone else, and have a shedload of fans cheering us on albeit the atmosphere not as good as it SOMETIMES is at WHL. Hope this clarifies....

 

[Jurgen the German]

Funny, because Ive been detecting a weird, kinky, irrational need to talk up teams like Liverpool beyond reason.

I kind of get it, its laying the groundwork for the disappointment people expect later. If they spend the season talking up other teams, and then that team finishes ahead of us, well its ok because we werent getting our hopes up were we?

I dont think anyone doubts Liverpool as a threat to the top 4, they are. We have a 6 into 4 equation (5 into 3?) and they are part of it.

That said, the weaknesses they have mean they wont be chasing the top of that pack, IMO - and plenty seem to agree that they arent the be all and end all in this fight.

I haven't really noticed that. All I have seen is people point out is Liverpool, United and Chelsea are above us in the table and we should not take any of them lightly. You only have to look at some of the comments about Liverpool from the Emirates Marketing Project game to see how people are desperate to talk Liverpool down "they only won cos Emirates Marketing Project didn't turn up" etc.

Of the 3 teams above us I think Liverpool and United are the ones who are the most catch-able. Liverpool are on an unbelievable run, haven't lost since they lost to us IIRC but people rarely mention that on here, funny that. Whenever we beat a top side a lot of people claim that "we broke them". Having said that their defensive issues will catch up to them at some point I believe.

Chelsea are going through a sticky patch, rumours that Conte is a goner at the end of the season may be affecting them. I'd still back them to finish in the top 3 IMO.

 

[billyiddo]

Yes and no - I agree there is a small level of disadvantage to playing at Wembley vs WHL, however I dont agree as to it being like us playing away everytime we're at Wembley. We are far more familiar with Wembley pitch than anyone else, and have a shedload of fans cheering us on albeit the atmosphere not as good as it SOMETIMES is at WHL. Hope this clarifies....

Well using the term 'playing our games away' isnt really a sticking point for me it's just a phrase to highlight that we are not in our true home ground - so stick whatever label you want on it and run with it - the fact remains that we have a disadvantage that others sides don't and to be within 3 points of our rivals despite that is a sign that i) they arent really that much better than us if they are only slightly ahead and ii) if after half a season of playing there the effect it has on us becomes less and less, then going forward we can potentially match the form we have had in previous seasons and look to close the gap...

 

[harr1984]

Well using the term 'playing our games away' isnt really a sticking point for me it's just a phrase to highlight that we are not in our true home ground - so stick whatever label you want on it and run with it - the fact remains that we have a disadvantage that others sides don't and to be within 3 points of our rivals despite that is a sign that i) they arent really that much better than us if they are only slightly ahead and ii) if after half a season of playing there the effect it has on us becomes less and less, then going forward we can potentially match the form we have had in previous seasons and look to close the gap...

This all come about because I picked up on you saying we are the second best team in the league - we arent, and there is noone outside of here who would say that. Can give all the excuses about Wembley you want, even though statistically it hasnt hindered us that much. It all sounds like very 'sexy' comments like 'We came top of the league over two seasons' 'look at wage league table compared to where we are in the league'. Just accept we arent as good as many on here think we are - theres always an excuse as to why we dont achieve something.Yes we've made progress, but the way we try and big up what we have achieved and put down those bigger teams who have actually won more and currently sitting prettier than us in the league demonstrate the rose tinted glasses many on here like to wear....

 

[Jurgen the German]

This all come about because I picked up on you saying we are the second best team in the league - we arent, and there is noone outside of here who would say that. Can give all the excuses about Wembley you want, even though statistically it hasnt hindered us that much. It all sounds like very 'sexy' comments like 'We came top of the league over two seasons' 'look at wage league table compared to where we are in the league'. Just accept we arent as good as many on here think we are - theres always an excuse as to why we dont achieve something.Yes we've made progress, but the way we try and big up what we have achieved and put down those bigger teams who have actually won more and currently sitting prettier than us in the league demonstrate the rose tinted glasses many on here like to wear....

This one always makes me smile. It's just so selective.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I haven't really noticed that. All I have seen is people point out is Liverpool, United and Chelsea are above us in the table and we should not take any of them lightly. You only have to look at some of the comments about Liverpool from the Emirates Marketing Project game to see how people are desperate to talk Liverpool down "they only won cos Emirates Marketing Project didn't turn up" etc.

Of the 3 teams above us I think Liverpool and United are the ones who are the most catch-able. Liverpool are on an unbelievable run, haven't lost since they lost to us IIRC but people rarely mention that on here, funny that. Whenever we beat a top side a lot of people claim that "we broke them". Having said that their defensive issues will catch up to them at some point I believe.

Chelsea are going through a sticky patch, rumours that Conte is a goner at the end of the season may be affecting them. I'd still back them to finish in the top 3 IMO.

I genuinely dont think Liverpool are that great. I think they are a highly flawed team. They are doing well, I dont deny, but that doesnt change the fact I think they have rather significant weaknesses that the other top teams dont really share.

Ive been a fan for 25 years. In that time we have basically been rubbish. I think there is a natural (and deserved) pessimism in Spurs fans, and I think it still comes out today.

Out of the top 6, I think City are clearly well away and wont be caught.

Right now Id fancy Chelsea to be weaker than Utd when all is said and done. I think its a straight fight between us and Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal for 3rd and 4th at this point.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Look guys, its gonna be close whatever happens, we have 4 of us going for 3 places. (The goons have had it imo)

All four of us are decent teams. The other three have their positives and negatives, more so than us, we are the most stable and organised.

Conte and Jose are volatile f.ckers.

I would say the others have some weapons that are genuine match winners. BUT we have a genuine goal machine.

The wembley factor may well add up to 8-10pts difference compared to fortress WHL last season. That could be a real difficult negative to overcome considering the competition looks fierce this season.

Also we were on fire for the second half of last season, although we could possibly match that, it is still a big ask.

We have 44pts with 15 games to go. I'd say 2pts a game is easily do-able BUT would 74pts be enough for CL?.

Just one final thing..........Leicester at home on the last day bugs me. They're such spoilers.