Daniel Levy - Chairman

[thfcsteff]

Yes £2b
Hence my post earlier ... their aren’t that many people that could buy it... I think less than 30

I have to agree, the figure sounds bizarrely big, however for the right business/consortium I don't think so. But I have to ask, are you really suggesting that less than 30 people in the world could afford to buy at that price? Because the conservative estimate is that there are 2500 of the filthy rich feckers, with a quarter of that figure nestled in the USofA!

 

[braineclipse]

@Hootnow

Your comparisons aren't as even handed as you think they are mate, you shouldn't really include Chelsea for the same reasons you have ignored City and you have to appreciate that money makes money in the case of Liverpool/United and even Arsenal - big clubs who were succesful at the time of the Sky TV era and then the CL era - big clubs with ever growing world wide fanbases and global reach commercially - matching Liverpool and Chelsea's growth with that in mind, as you describe it, is an achievement closing the gap on Arsenal is huge... one important factor which has been left out too is how we have fared with clubs that are traditionally our peers - your Saudi Sportswashing Machine Everton Villa and dare i say Leeds', clubs that at one point or another have been trying to make the jump from best of the rest to part of the top group etc - we are the only club to have made that leap on the pitch and you really should be looking at our growth compared to theirs also.

It's the latter which really shows the job that has been done here because there is really no reason at all that we have a right to succeed where those clubs have failed, we could easily be sat where Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Villa are had we had different owners these past 20 years and to be where we are whilst building the stadium and the infrastructure improvements undertaken as well shows the real difference between our ownership and all others in their ability at managing both on and off the field.

Spot on.

Will be very concerned the day new owners and a new chairman becomes a reality.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I have to agree, the figure sounds bizarrely big, however for the right business/consortium I don't think so. But I have to ask, are you really suggesting that less than 30 people in the world could afford to buy at that price? Because the conservative estimate is that there are 2500 of the filthy rich feckers, with a quarter of that figure nestled in the USofA!

i checked yesterday and looking at people worth over £20b there was about 30
Unless of course someone wants to spend more than 10% of their money on a football club

people have to remember than Roman got Chelsea for free ish and city too didn’t go for much money

no football club has gone for real big money that I’m aware of

 

[Jordinho]

i checked yesterday and looking at people worth over £20b there was about 30
Unless of course someone wants to spend more than 10% of their money on a football club

people have to remember than Roman got Chelsea for free ish and city too didn’t go for much money

no football club has gone for real big money that I’m aware of

Any kind of takeover now will most likely be a United style one. Filthy rich feckers of questionable origin will probably be looking for cheaper clubs where they can launder their money.

 

[Hootnow]

@Hootnow

Your comparisons aren't as even handed as you think they are mate, you shouldn't really include Chelsea for the same reasons you have ignored City and you have to appreciate that money makes money in the case of Liverpool/United and even Arsenal - big clubs who were succesful at the time of the Sky TV era and then the CL era - big clubs with ever growing world wide fanbases and global reach commercially - matching Liverpool and Chelsea's growth with that in mind, as you describe it, is an achievement closing the gap on Arsenal is huge... one important factor which has been left out too is how we have fared with clubs that are traditionally our peers - your Saudi Sportswashing Machine Everton Villa and dare i say Leeds', clubs that at one point or another have been trying to make the jump from best of the rest to part of the top group etc - we are the only club to have made that leap on the pitch and you really should be looking at our growth compared to theirs also.

It's the latter which really shows the job that has been done here because there is really no reason at all that we have a right to succeed where those clubs have failed, we could easily be sat where Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Villa are had we had different owners these past 20 years and to be where we are whilst building the stadium and the infrastructure improvements undertaken as well shows the real difference between our ownership and all others in their ability at managing both on and off the field.

Mate, I said in another post that I appreciate I, like everyone else, will be coming at it from my own biases. I also in yet another post made the point about the clubs below:

Of course the argument could be that without his leadership, we may have fallen further behind and his big achievement has been to make sure we didn't fall back into the Leicester/Everton/West ham pack, which I would empathise and agree with.

I didn't include City because in 2004, I don't think they were even in the deloitte money league top 20 and included Chelsea because it actually shows some progress from us and they've had to become relatively self sufficient in the last few years.

I do appreciate that you've probably missed them because I've bored the board with quite a few walls of text in the last 12 hours.....

 

[Raziel]

I think Levy has done brilliantly with the investment into structure and facilities. His partnership with the NFL is visionary, a stroke of genius for sure. But we are a well-run business, something I am personally proud of. We have always looked to stay within certain means. Joe Lewis is no sugar daddy, and I personally was very proud of that. He has run it like a tight, hard business.

Where I think Levy can always be criticized is with regard to players, incoming and outgoings. There is no doubt whatsoever that Levy has consistently applied the driest sense of business when dealing in the transfer market, and this had lead to protracted deals which end up resulting in either near-misses or deadline day purchases; not conducive to preparation, but Daniel has always loved a deal and played as hard as possible to get one. Again, it is a strategy I can somewhat understand.

What makes me believe a sale is in the offing is that DL will have prepared for all sorts of scenarios in eluding a non-CL season, in the new stadium. In my opinion, he clearly got the message from above to make this move IF he could get Mourinho, a huge name in football, perhaps because there is an interested party and knowing that with the amazon doc and Mourinho's name, our stock and attention would stratosphere short-term, thus preserving our interests as a viable commodity. As you rightly say the NFL tie-in is a blinder; now with Mourinho in charge, we are top sports news every day. Our presence is huge. Therefore I think there is very real legitimacy to the selling concept personally.

The numbers don't make sense

- Spend a billion pounds after 10+ years of the most intense battles with London, transport authorities and a list a mile long.
- Include a lot of "nice to haves" and area development that no one coming to buy will give a brick about (at considerably more cost)
- Build a model that is heavily NFL focused
- Not taking naming rights

As I said
- If Levy wanted to sell, the year we first made CL, or the year Poch made CL with the approved stadium build plan would have made more sense.
- If he wanted to sell after stadium build then the "best of everything" approach makes no sense business wise (and no one can say he doesn't know money), we could have spent 500M less and sold (and there is no way the extra detail is worth the cost difference)
- Again, a short term naming deal paid upfront (pocket the money) would not do anything to hinder the sale or sale price
- Additionally football money has not peaked (US and far east is still a developing market), why sell now?

To me there are only two options that make sense

- If you have to believe that Levy wants to sell, then the only conspiracy theory that makes sense is he worked out a deal with a NFL franchise owner who will come in and buy us for 2B+
- The more logical view is this is just the end of one phase, the new phase will include NFL & multi-sport, a push on raising the profile of the club even further to push the finances to a level where we are the club with the economic advantage and can create that on pitch success. With Jose being the first step in a step change of our approach including spend (all we would need to do is raise our player expenses to that 55-60% of new turnover). The number one sports club in the world is a NFL club, the PL has about a third of the top 10 football clubs in the world, US stadium naming rights deals dwarf football stadium deals, what happens when you combine the two? what happens when you can sell the rights to a NFL/EPL double header?

Last note re the mortgage comparison and those who think we just use the club. Joe Lewis has in the past personally guaranteed loans to support Spurs.

 

[Raziel]

Any kind of takeover now will most likely be a United style one. Filthy rich feckers of questionable origin will probably be looking for cheaper clubs where they can launder their money.

United wasn't taken over by rich feckers ..

- It is the equivalent of a hostile takeover, they financed a club with little or no debt and massive equity value to finance itself
- Effectively they borrowed the money to buy United based on the value of United with very little risk or output of money on their part
- It also left the club with a massive debt at a bricky interest rate that has meant United has spent untold tens of millions on managing that debt.
- On top of that, they regularly skim "dividend payments" off the top and take it out of club.

If you are a United fan with any concept of finance it would drive you absolutely mad, without that buyout they would have had hundreds of millions of extra revenue (on top of the silly money they already spend) that could have gone into the squad.

Chelsea while technically has been RA's money, a lot of his cash input is still technically on the books as Chelsea owing him, so if he walks away they are not debt free.

People who really want Levy/ENIC out should look at how the biggest clubs are run (hint, it's far worse than us)

 

[Hootnow]

@Raziel , I have to be honest and say this is where I'm slightly confused. It seems to be, and I may be wrong, that you are taking it almost as a personal affront to suggest that Levy and Lewis, heads of an investment vehicle, may look, at some point, to sell the club. A conspiracy theory? To suggest that people sell and buy football clubs? I mean, that's been the nature of football for decades now. Unless Levy/Lewis are going to do an Agnelli and hand over the club to their families and build a generations spanning dynasty for the club (fair play to them if so), I don't see what's so conspiratorial about it?

At one stage, you seem to be suggesting that now wouldn't be the right time to sell (football not yet reached peak) and therefore they won't sell yet and then in the next sentence, seemingly say its ridiculous to suggest they would sell?

I'd actually be interested to hear from some of you on what you think Levy's faults are.

 

[Raziel]

@Raziel , I have to be honest and say this is where I'm slightly confused. It seems to be, and I may be wrong, that you are taking it almost as a personal affront to suggest that Levy and Lewis, heads of an investment vehicle, may look, at some point, to sell the club. A conspiracy theory? To suggest that people sell and buy football clubs? I mean, that's been the nature of football for decades now. Unless Levy/Lewis are going to do an Agnelli and hand over the club to their families and build a generations spanning dynasty for the club (fair play to them if so), I don't see what's so conspiratorial about it?

At one stage, you seem to be suggesting that now wouldn't be the right time to sell (football not yet reached peak) and therefore they won't sell yet and then in the next sentence, seemingly say its ridiculous to suggest they would sell?

I'd actually be interested to hear from some of you on what you think Levy's faults are.

No mate, nothing personal (I try, as hard as that is when we discuss things that are our passion, never to take it personal). And sorry .. long ass post incoming

- Levy/ENIC could sell, perhaps inevitably will sell at some point.

What frustrates me is

- The either quick flip or milking club narrative (which after 19 years is way beyond dead horse stage)
- The other point of whenever the club reaches a point (CL, stadium, Jose, whatever), the "ahhh, right, yes they will sell now" as if Spurs is some hot potato that ENIC is trying desperately to get rid off as quickly as possible (see first point again)

It is a lazy narrative, I've yet to see a single reason why an imminent sale is likely other than the same old same old with not a single fact to back it up.

So let's get to your points, what do I see (and personal opinion, I probably know fudge all)

- ENIC has Spurs as a great investment vehicle that will turn around a 60-80M investment into a multi-billion dollar asset
- In Levy they have a great CEO that is also emotionally invested in the club
- In the next 5-10 years the value of Spurs and football will likely still go up (with success and further growth in overseas markets)
- If they could buy into a joint NFL franchise +Spurs it could potentially create the single most valuable sports asset in the world (exceeding Madrid and United)

So where/why would they sell

- Someone makes an offer they can't refuse (unlikely as potential buyers could probably buy other clubs for far less up front)
- The NFL thing doesn't pan out and perhaps a NFL franchise reverses the deal, offers to buy Spurs instead (similar to point above)
- Something happens with Levy (personal/health/fall out with ENIC), he is the key and the visionary
- ENIC/Lewis run into financial problems due to other businesses and need the cash

Most likely (again my opinion)

- ENIC/Levy continue the plan for another 5-10 years, work the NFL angle, get some trophies and on field success, pay down the debt and re-evaluate do they continue or sell out at that point

Hence I simply don't see a sell scenario (where we are actively trying to sell/market the club, not where an amazing offer comes in) in the next 3-5 years minimum.

Levy\s weakness/faults

- Same as everyone else, there are moments where all of us believe we could have been that bit more aggressive in buying/paying/keeping a certain player or investing in squad
- Perhaps too much patience, too much the long game
- It also took him a while to learn, quite a few missteps in the first 10 years, really the BMJ/FA appointments were where he seemed to grasp the needs/model and also stop caring too much about fan/media opinion

He is not faultless, but as I said, it's kind of like nitpicking Messi's game, sure he has areas that aren't great in isolation, but once you actually compare to others you realize what you have.

One day Levy will leave (he has said he is just a custodian) and I will still support Spurs, just as I will whenever x player or manager leaves.

 

[Jordinho]

United wasn't taken over by rich feckers ..

- It is the equivalent of a hostile takeover, they financed a club with little or no debt and massive equity value to finance itself
- Effectively they borrowed the money to buy United based on the value of United with very little risk or output of money on their part
- It also left the club with a massive debt at a bricky interest rate that has meant United has spent untold tens of millions on managing that debt.
- On top of that, they regularly skim "dividend payments" off the top and take it out of club.

If you are a United fan with any concept of finance it would drive you absolutely mad, without that buyout they would have had hundreds of millions of extra revenue (on top of the silly money they already spend) that could have gone into the squad.

Chelsea while technically has been RA's money, a lot of his cash input is still technically on the books as Chelsea owing him, so if he walks away they are not debt free.

People who really want Levy/ENIC out should look at how the biggest clubs are run (hint, it's far worse than us)

Yes, I wasn't saying they were. It was meant as two separate statements.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm a football fan and take no more interest in the financial side than I have to, but are we to big to sell now?
As @Bedfordspurs alludes too, is the cost so much that it rules out every one except for a very tiny band of people and the chance that this is a sphere they would be interested in, and spurs in particular, mean we are unsellable?

If bezos/amazon or Zuckerberg/fb are interested, could they do it, and would they be allowed to and still buy the TV rights?

 

[Raziel]

I'm a football fan and take no more interest in the financial side than I have to, but are we to big to sell now?
As @Bedfordspurs alludes too, is the cost so much that it rules out every one except for a very tiny band of people and the chance that this is a sphere they would be interested in, and spurs in particular, mean we are unsellable?

If bezos/amazon or Zuckerberg/fb are interested, could they do it, and would they be allowed to and still buy the TV rights?

Nothing is unsellable and 2B in a sports franchise (yes, wrong term) would not be outside realm of possibility, it is just does anyone see the value/upside?

-The bigger question is probably how attractive are we compared to other clubs, i.e. if you could spend 200- 400M on a "lesser" club and then invest in that base, is that more attractive, less risky than a turnkey 1.5B+ Spurs purchase?

City/PSG were the last big crazy money buys I'm aware of and some time has passed, doesn't seem like too many others are following, and the issue may be they are too many "top clubs" now to be able to join or replace the elite without breaking the business case.

 

[mudshark]

No mate, nothing personal (I try, as hard as that is when we discuss things that are our passion, never to take it personal). And sorry .. long ass post incoming

- Levy/ENIC could sell, perhaps inevitably will sell at some point.

What frustrates me is

- The either quick flip or milking club narrative (which after 19 years is way beyond dead horse stage)
- The other point of whenever the club reaches a point (CL, stadium, Jose, whatever), the "ahhh, right, yes they will sell now" as if Spurs is some hot potato that ENIC is trying desperately to get rid off as quickly as possible (see first point again)

It is a lazy narrative, I've yet to see a single reason why an imminent sale is likely other than the same old same old with not a single fact to back it up.

It's your own straw man. No-one else has said what ENIC are doing is a quick anything, or that they are milking the club, either. Neither of the above. You misinterpreted my piggy bank simile and have extrapolated from there. But fine, all in the spirit of debate and that. Some of us are feeling a bit of a fatted calf vibe and therefore see reasons to expect the club to be sold in the rather shorter term, some of us aren't and don't. Time will tell.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

@Raziel , I have to be honest and say this is where I'm slightly confused. It seems to be, and I may be wrong, that you are taking it almost as a personal affront to suggest that Levy and Lewis, heads of an investment vehicle, may look, at some point, to sell the club. A conspiracy theory? To suggest that people sell and buy football clubs? I mean, that's been the nature of football for decades now. Unless Levy/Lewis are going to do an Agnelli and hand over the club to their families and build a generations spanning dynasty for the club (fair play to them if so), I don't see what's so conspiratorial about it?

At one stage, you seem to be suggesting that now wouldn't be the right time to sell (football not yet reached peak) and therefore they won't sell yet and then in the next sentence, seemingly say its ridiculous to suggest they would sell?

I'd actually be interested to hear from some of you on what you think Levy's faults are.

Personally I think we’re not an investment vehicle anymore and are now daniel levy’s vanity project

when Enic was set up it was investing and owning stakes in small clubs
The opportunity to take over at Tottenham came through at the right time and low and behold they did that and disposed of ALL other assets. They also moved to take us private ish

If they were still acting as an investing business they would IMO still own other investments

Doesn’t mean Joe Lewis doesn’t see it that way, but Daniel Levy is part owner of the group that owns the club too and GHod what little Lewis has invested I’m guessing he doesn’t care as long as it’s looked after

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Nothing is unsellable and 2B in a sports franchise (yes, wrong term) would not be outside realm of possibility, it is just does anyone see the value/upside?

-The bigger question is probably how attractive are we compared to other clubs, i.e. if you could spend 200- 400M on a "lesser" club and then invest in that base, is that more attractive, less risky than a turnkey 1.5B+ Spurs purchase?

City/PSG were the last big crazy money buys I'm aware of and some time has passed, doesn't seem like too many others are following, and the issue may be they are too many "top clubs" now to be able to join or replace the elite without breaking the business case.

from a business sense buying a top club for the values now makes no sense as their is IMO so little room for growth and so much room for failure

you could buy Leeds for a fraction of spurs value and make real money with investment. Same with someone like Sheffield Wednesday or Bristol City (huge catchment)

 

[glasgowspur]

Personally I think we’re not an investment vehicle anymore and are now daniel levy’s vanity project

when Enic was set up it was investing and owning stakes in small clubs
The opportunity to take over at Tottenham came through at the right time and low and behold they did that and disposed of ALL other assets. They also moved to take us private ish

If they were still acting as an investing business they would IMO still own other investments

Doesn’t mean Joe Lewis doesn’t see it that way, but Daniel Levy is part owner of the group that owns the club too and GHod what little Lewis has invested I’m guessing he doesn’t care as long as it’s looked after

So do you think that an upside for Levy in the work and investment he has put in means it's no longer likely he could sell it on?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So do you think that an upside for Levy in the work and investment he has put in means it's no longer likely he could sell it on?

Course he could
Just don’t see why and who to...
But I didn’t see Poch getting sacked and Mou incoming either

 

[Jordinho]

Personally I think we’re not an investment vehicle anymore and are now daniel levy’s vanity project

when Enic was set up it was investing and owning stakes in small clubs
The opportunity to take over at Tottenham came through at the right time and low and behold they did that and disposed of ALL other assets. They also moved to take us private ish

If they were still acting as an investing business they would IMO still own other investments

Doesn’t mean Joe Lewis doesn’t see it that way, but Daniel Levy is part owner of the group that owns the club too and GHod what little Lewis has invested I’m guessing he doesn’t care as long as it’s looked after

I think it's Lewis's heirs that are of interest when looking at our long term future. His daughter is on the board of Tavistock and supposedly a fan.

 

[braineclipse]

It's your own straw man. No-one else has said what ENIC are doing is a quick anything, or that they are milking the club, either. Neither of the above. You misinterpreted my piggy bank simile and have extrapolated from there. But fine, all in the spirit of debate and that. Some of us are feeling a bit of a fatted calf vibe and therefore see reasons to expect the club to be sold in the rather shorter term, some of us aren't and don't. Time will tell.

You could be right that this is the time they choose to sell. It's a speculation that's been presented so many times it's getting to broken clock being right if it's suggested then happens imo, though I don't know if you personally have suggested this before.

If we are a fat calf isn't that a good thing? It's not like we're actually heading to the slaughter house...

Would you be happy if the club was sold, or if Levy made it clear that the club is for sale?

 

[mudshark]

You could be right that this is the time they choose to sell. It's a speculation that's been presented so many times it's getting to broken clock being right if it's suggested then happens imo, though I don't know if you personally have suggested this before.

If we are a fat calf isn't that a good thing? It's not like we're actually heading to the slaughter house...

Would you be happy if the club was sold, or if Levy made it clear that the club is for sale?

I'd view it with some trepidation.