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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Rorschach said:
Actually no deal is not banished yet If no trade agreement is reached in transition, I think. But I do agree that trying to bluff by holding a gun to your own head seems a bit barmy.

On the face of it, this deal Boris has cobbled together is far far worse for the UK than even May's deal but it might actually squeak through as everyone has had enough. A veritable war of attrition. This is a tempting viewpoint to take but is wrong of course. Brexit, no matter how painful it is to continue the fight, will affect a generation.
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I'd suggest that, up until this point, the term 'no deal brexit' has more generally been used to describe a situation of leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement. It's a clever piece of spin by remainers to now be scaremongering about how passing this deal can somehow still mean 'no deal' will occur (since that macaronic interview with a tory mp yesterday), but that's all it is in my opinion.
 
P.D. said:
There's a lot of people who come up with the stereotype that it's a load of right wing nutjobs wanting Brexit but there's millions on the left who also want Brexit. Is Dennis Skinner a right wing toff, how about Bow Crow (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/17/exit-europe-from-the-left) or Jenny Jones? Or how about add Corbyn to the mix - one of the biggest Brexiteers in parliament.
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Different types of "Brexit". One name, many many different possibilities. Labour's leave approach is far more based on working with the EU. Rathe than threaten they see collaboration with the EU on trade, and peoples rights. The right-wing fuddy-duddies on the other hand think we are some colonial power still and can swing our dingdong about. Although they have a polar opposite approach to the left-wing leavers - deregulation vs more state control - what unifies both is delusion. Both are driven by outdated doctrine that stops them from seeing sense. Just as Communism has been proven to be unworkable in key ways, so has free-market economics. Neither will work in isolation. You can not have the state owning and running the economy and it being efficient, and you can't leave markets to it with no state intervention and expect them to remain ballanced, fair and sustainable.

So what these people share, is a lack of intelligence. They are so stuck in their doctrines, they can not see what is viable and isn't. And that is why they back brexit. Their doctrine - their ideological beliefs - overpower logic. Nevermind that it doesn't work. And that is the story of brexit. What is different with these cats in power is its their job to take time to understand and act in peoples best interests. The general public shouldn't have to understand economics and global affiars - that should not be a prerequisite for voting. Why would it be? But those in power, that is their job. They should know better. These extremists are slaves to their doctrine. And that is highly dangerous, as they will lead us down paths that serve their master, which are not rational paths or in the interests of the country.
 
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Parklaner81 said:
I'd suggest that, up until this point, the term 'no deal brexit' has more generally been used to describe a situation of leaving the EU without a withdrawal agreement. It's a clever piece of spin by remainers to now be scaremongering about how passing this deal can somehow still mean 'no deal' will occur (since that macaronic interview with a tory mp yesterday), but that's all it is in my opinion.
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No deal still means that. It is not spin. If the transition clock runs out without a trade agreement the UK will crash out. This is coming from Raab and Gove I believe.
 
Boris

Swinson has been in Brussels all week telling them not to offer us a deal

It shows her influence that we now have one

Mega-Lolz
 
SpurMeUp said:
Different types of "Brexit". One name, many many different possibilities. Labour's leave approach is far more based on working with the EU. Rathe than threaten they see collaboration with the EU on trade, and peoples rights. The right-wing fuddy-duddies on the other hand think we are some colonial power still and can swing our dingdong about. Although they have a polar opposite approach to the left-wing leavers - deregulation vs more state control - what unifies both is delusion. Both are driven by outdated doctrine that stops them from seeing sense. Just as Communism has been proven to be unworkable in key ways, so has free-market economics. Neither will work in isolation. You can not have the state owning and running the economy and it being efficient, and you can't leave markets to it with no state intervention and expect them to remain ballanced, fair and sustainable.

So what these people share, is a lack of intelligence. They are so stuck in their doctrines, they can not see what is viable and isn't. And that is why they back brexit. Their doctrine - their ideological beliefs - overpower logic. Nevermind that it doesn't work. And that is the story of brexit. What is different with these cats in power is its their job to take time to understand and act in peoples best interests. The general public shouldn't have to understand economics and global affiars - that should not be a prerequisite for voting. Why would it be? But those in power, that is their job. They should know better. These extremists are slaves to their doctrine. And that is highly dangerous, as they will lead us down paths that serve their master, which are not rational paths or in the interests of the country.
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I should first say I did get your lengthy response last week but it's been a busy week and didn't get a chance to respond but the part in bold is the key discussion point for me - are MP's elected to represent their constituents or are they there to make decisions on behalf of them (or a combination of the 2). I believe in the former and the checks and balances will be provided by the electorate - we are generally a liberal outward looking country and therefore won't tolerate a race to the bottom nor would we tolerate some huge state intervention programme but somewhere in the middle.
 
P.D. said:
I should first say I did get your lengthy response last week but it's been a busy week and didn't get a chance to respond but the part in bold is the key discussion point for me - are MP's elected to represent their constituents or are they there to make decisions on behalf of them (or a combination of the 2). I believe in the former and the checks and balances will be provided by the electorate - we are generally a liberal outward looking country and therefore won't tolerate a race to the bottom nor would we tolerate some huge state intervention programme but somewhere in the middle.
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Don't worry about the diatribe! I think it is fair to say Brexit is highly complex. One word, many many connotations and variables from immigration, to economics. Within brexit economics, there is a heap of things from tariffs, customs arrangements, trade agreements. Then there is the political space the UK fills post brexit, how the UK is represented in the continent of Europe and perceived across the world. We used to be seen as a place to invest in. We are less and less so as the extremists turn the UK from an open nation into a more closed one. But the point is, to address "Brexit" you have to address all of these multifaceted issues. And who has time for that? Who has time to read and respond to a lengthy post on economics? Or bother reading about it in the paper? Its not something the Sun have ever tried to do. And why should they it is not what people want.

So to answer your question, MPs should both represent peoples interests without direct instruction, and also listen to them. The vote was not clearly instructive - for example: deliver a certain type of brexit even if it makes us poorer. So MPs have to act on behalf of people - including the third of the nation that did not vote.

Switzerland has the closest thing to true pure democracy. They vote on everything. It is debatable as to whether this works better. They have pretty wacky laws stopping people mowing their lawns on Sundays and hanging out washing etc, as well as stuff on how people should treat their pets etc.
 
Rorschach said:
No deal still means that. It is not spin. If the transition clock runs out without a trade agreement the UK will crash out. This is coming from Raab and Gove I believe.
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Where the alternative to this was handing full power and discretion over such negotiations to the EU, I think I'll accept the risk.
 
Baroness Lawrence made some pretty shameful comments on Grenfell and the Fire phalanx calling that their actions or lack of were race related.
 
You may not think it but Boris is probably the smartest politician out there.

He knows his destination but puts a stack load of thought into scenarios and outcomes and probably is two, let alone one, step ahead.

He has plenty of allies as well, can get people on board with ideas, a remarkably charms the women.

He'll throw people under the bus (DUP) and doesn't really care putting someone's nose out of joint.

I quite like all that, it moves things along and cuts out the pussy footing.

Of course the big hunch is he is just doing this for his own benefit, and the old school network chums. And sadly that probably end up with a bigger divide between the haves and the have nots.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
You may not think it but Boris is probably the smartest politician out there.

He knows his destination but puts a stack load of thought into scenarios and outcomes and probably is two, let alone one, step ahead.

He has plenty of allies as well, can get people on board with ideas, a remarkably charms the women.

He'll throw people under the bus (DUP) and doesn't really care putting someone's nose out of joint.

I quite like all that, it moves things along and cuts out the pussy footing.

Of course the big hunch is he is just doing this for his own benefit, and the old school network chums. And sadly that probably end up with a bigger divide between the haves and the have nots.
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I like Boris, a shame about Brexit. He could offer something refreshing but sadly his time will be focused and remembered by Brexit. If this bill passes there will be years of this nonsense. Start with the EU trade agreement that will probably also be extended and run for a couple of years. Then there will be the fall out, and the eventual realisation that we lose wealth and don't gain much from leaving the EU.

I would counter that Boris' genius is that he doesn't know his destination. His slightly anarchic approach is his strength. Keep everyone guessing, and look as though he has a master plan. But make no mistake there is no brexit master plan, least of all from Boris who is playing an opportunist game. He'll ride the wave, but will he be able to surf his way out of it before it crashes?
 
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