Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Benny_Lad]

and if we lose on saturday do we give him more time?

It’s not about winning or losing Saturday. That’s a short term view.

The team is going through/about to go through a major transition, it’s about whether you think Poch is the man for that. I do.

The pain isn’t going overnight so we need to suck it up and wait until Poch recycles the players/positions he wants to.

 

[Benny_Lad]

Pretty good article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054375

 

[Mikey10]

Pretty good article.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054375

Interesting to note who wrote it.

 

[nayenezgani]

And if Pochettino does go, which big name, knowing what they know, is going to be prepared to grasp this particular nettle?

It will mean Spurs will have to go for a young, ambitious type of manager, someone with energy and enthusiasm, ready and willing to fight to change the situation. Is there anyone out there who would be up to the task? Put another way, where can Levy find another Pochettino?

I am told that the constant stories being published that players are unhappy are not totally or all true, but discontent exists. The footballers are receiving more analysis than ever and experience different types of training, but the main problem, as is usual in these moments of difficulties, is that everyone is looking for a spacegoat. In truth, everyone and every level at the club must take some share of the responsibility.

There is a natural frustration with what is happening, what has happened, and probably most of all with what should have happened. The club believe a positive turnaround in fortunes is inevitable and that Pochettino will soon start maximising his team's potential once again. It is, looking at the bigger picture, the logical approach.

Bang on.

 

[Legohamster]

They were pretty much right, we burnt out completely around March and we are now seeing what a season of no signings does - we are playing catch up.

We got very lucky last season that United/Arsenal decided to stop winning games.

Whilst it doesn’t really matter how you get there - the warning signs could be seen.

Nah im sure if you were to go back to the beginning of last season on the forum and look at what was predicated after the summer window closed it was widely thought that's what we'd get out of the season...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

There isn't a million excuses, there are reasons why the team are failing, some is poch, some the players and some DL.
I've never said anything different.
Replacing poch won't imv solve the issue with Toby, Rose, or Eriksen. It won't cure Wanyama’s knees or turn Sissoko I to a half decent footballer. So a new coach will want to move them on.
DL isn't likely to splurge that money in one go with a new coach.

Changing a known quantity manager with a plan approved by a chairman who has already started putting the pieces in place is better than ditching it all to start again.

But this is the point. What is the problem with Toby? Think about that, and then explain to me why Poch cant deal with it right now and make it go away.
The issue of Toby, Rose or Eriksen - not an issue. Just something for the manager to deal with.
And the manager even has perfectly viable alternatives.

Wanyama is not an issue. He is something like 6th choice for CM, who even cares?

And this is the point Im making.

Either you* think Poch should be doing better, or youve got a bunch of excuses for him.

*general you, not specific you.

The machine is indeed pretty well perfectly serviceable (if we switch off a few of the bells and whistles). However I'm not sure we can expect it to produce better output than at the other companies who have invested in the brand new all singing, all dancing models?

Which companies would they be? Because I can realistically see only two we cant match right now.

I take It by that you mean this season only?

I do. I think we underperformed last season, but there were many, many perfectly valid reasons as to why. This season? No such luxury IMHO.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Pretty good article.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054375
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054375

Pochettino mouthpiece blaming the chairman, absolving Poch, and saying he was thinking of going but decided to do us a favour and stick around? Not sure its a good article at all.

Its PR. Either "heres why you should get behind him" or "heres why he left and its not his fault"

 

[Raziel]

Pretty good article.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054375
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50054375

Article is nonsense … opening statement

Effectively what we are seeing is the irrefutable decay of a squad that should have been recycled, reinvigorated, revitalised, a squad that has been allowed to drift into the footballing crisis it now finds itself in.

This is where I'm not understanding the kind of broad statement that players cannot play at a club for more than a certain length of time (statistical evidence actually suggest it's managers not player that have single club longevity issues)

- Hugo, Kane, Son, Lamela, Eriksen, Rose, Lucas, Davies, Dele, Dier, Aurier (11 first team players) are in or around the prime age for their careers
- Toby & Jan are the senior experienced players that for many years we begged to have in the team
- Winks, Sanchez, Foyth, Tangaga, N'Dombele, Lo Celso are all young, exciting potential, all already with international and PL experience and with exception of Tanganga & Lo Celso (PL)
- Sanchez, Aurier, Lucas, Foyth, N'dombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon are all players added more than half way into Poch's tenure, even if they haven't gotten as much playtime as expected, they are in and around squad.

I ask this again, does anyone believe that the above squad should lose 19 out of the last 41 games? would our fudging B team lose 19 out of 41?

And if Pochettino does go, which big name, knowing what they know, is going to be prepared to grasp this particular nettle?

Again, more flimflam ..

- Spurs has always paid managers well
- You think Jose has been sitting in our games because he likes the new stadium? or the press murmurs are without merit?
- Spurs is a great option, top 4, in CL, great facilities, a very good base team to work with and the knowledge that our ability to spend will go up
- Jose and Allegri are available, any upcoming manager will jump at the chance and we could probably tempt a few established ones from their current clubs.

This again is another one of those myths that ANY club allows a manager complete and free reign on who they want to buy at whatever price/wages (Pep and Zidane have both been told no on occasion by their clubs, Jose was told no at United)

In truth, everyone and every level at the club must take some share of the responsibility.

The one truth in the article, but here's the thing with responsibility, it's starts with the leader

- Levy has come out and said, we didn't get rid of all the players we wanted, we didn't get in all the player we wanted (he owns that)

What I'm missing is Poch saying "we have been on a brick run", "the players lack the right level of motivation/commitment", "we have been fudged over tactically repeatedly" and "it's my fudging job to change that right now" not in January, not when the magic fairy arrives, not when we recover our emotional wellbeing ...

Again, dog chasing it's tail arguement

- Either you believe that Poch has been wronged, unlucky, whatever and that squad listed above is so fudging bad (worse than Harry's team. etc) that losing close to 50% of our games is on par. In which case the crazy solution seems to be ok, the club is going to spend another 200M on players because the lot above are brick.
- Or you accept this team is horrendously underperforming for 10 months, and Poch needs to own that, try something fudging new (not a fudging diamond with overlapping FB's with the same fudging players that haven't been able to make it work for 10+ months) or move on ..

 

[glasgowspur]

But this is the point. What is the problem with Toby? Think about that, and then explain to me why Poch cant deal with it right now and make it go away.
The issue of Toby, Rose or Eriksen - not an issue. Just something for the manager to deal with.
And the manager even has perfectly viable alternatives.

Wanyama is not an issue. He is something like 6th choice for CM, who even cares?

And this is the point Im making.

Either you* think Poch should be doing better, or youve got a bunch of excuses for him.

*general you, not specific you.



Which companies would they be? Because I can realistically see only two we cant match right now.




I do. I think we underperformed last season, but there were many, many perfectly valid reasons as to why. This season? No such luxury IMHO.

I don't know if his legs have gone with age, the injuries he's had or his brain has turned to mush because of his contract situation, but Toby is not the same player he was. Despite what you keep saying you can't make age related issues go away.
None of the replacements are of peak Toby level. Again can't see how that is even debatable.
It's similar with Wanyama/diet, one is perma crocked and one is just done.

 

[MKSpur]

I am told that the constant stories being published that players are unhappy are not totally or all true, but discontent exists

Players may or may not be happy?? Cheers Guillem

 

[Raziel]

I don't know if his legs have gone with age, the injuries he's had or his brain has turned to mush because of his contract situation, but Toby is not the same player he was. Despite what you keep saying you can't make age related issues go away.
None of the replacements are of peak Toby level. Again can't see how that is even debatable.
It's similar with Wanyama/diet, one is perma crocked and one is just done.

Mate, the problem with this view is you are assuming that someone else is picking the teamsheet and that Toby is the only defender to have ever played past 30 without his pace.

Lets accept the excuse scenario

- Toby, Eriksen, Aurier, Wanyama are fudged beyond repair (and have been for 10 months)

Why the fudge are they playing?

- Sanchez, Foyth, Dier, Tanganga, Skipp, KWP can all play in those roles (even Davies can slot into CB)
- Surely they wouldn't do worse than losing 19 out of 41?

If somehow everyone can see these "not good enough, too old, head turned" player issues, then the coach can see it as well?

- Why doesn't he do what he did with Capoue, Adebayor, Lennon and bring in the current Mason, Bentaleb, Kane's? the names are above.
- Surely it would be better to be investing the bad results in improving players younger, with potential than old dead horses who don't care anymore?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don't know if his legs have gone with age, the injuries he's had or his brain has turned to mush because of his contract situation, but Toby is not the same player he was. Despite what you keep saying you can't make age related issues go away.
None of the replacements are of peak Toby level. Again can't see how that is even debatable.
It's similar with Wanyama/diet, one is perma crocked and one is just done.

Toby isnt peak Toby level, that whole point of argument is a red herring. Whether its debatable or not shouldnt even be part of the conversation.

Drop Toby, play Sanchez. Its that simple.

Sanchez isnt on his best form, but is he worse than Toby? Id say not.
Id say Sanchez is younger and more athletic, and much less likely to be vulnerable to the failings Toby currently is.
Id also say Sanchez will never recover his form unless he actually gets games.
And lastly Id say, if given the choice of two out of form players to persist with, Id play the one that represents the future - not the one that represents the past - and try and develop him through this rough patch into a better player.

So I have to ask, again, how is Toby (for example) an issue that cannot be solved? How is he a problem we are forced to live with? And why isnt it down to the manager to deal with?

 

[glasgowspur]

Mate, the problem with this view is you are assuming that someone else is picking the teamsheet and that Toby is the only defender to have ever played past 30 without his pace.

Lets accept the excuse scenario

- Toby, Eriksen, Aurier, Wanyama are fudged beyond repair (and have been for 10 months)

Why the fudge are they playing?

- Sanchez, Foyth, Dier, Tanganga, Skipp, KWP can all play in those roles (even Davies can slot into CB)
- Surely they wouldn't do worse than losing 19 out of 41?

If somehow everyone can see these "not good enough, too old, head turned" player issues, then the coach can see it as well?

- Why doesn't he do what he did with Capoue, Adebayor, Lennon and bring in the current Mason, Bentaleb, Kane's? the names are above.
- Surely it would be better to be investing the bad results in improving players younger, with potential than old dead horses who don't care anymore?

So we got top 4 and CL final last, and credible results away to city and arsenal mixed in with some bad results at the start of this, our transition season, and the pitchforks and torches are out. Yet you're telling me that the fans would be happy to settle for a bunch of untried kids and the possibility of 6th.
I find that a bit hard to swallow tbh.
Our expectations have gone to high to accept that, its a different club from when poch took over.

 

[Raziel]

So we got top 4 and CL final last, and credible results away to city and arsenal mixed in with some bad results at the start of this, our transition season, and the pitchforks and torches are out. Yet you're telling me that the fans would be happy to settle for a bunch of untried kids and the possibility of 6th.
I find that a bit hard to swallow tbh.
Our expectations have gone to high to accept that, its a different club from when poch took over.

I'm telling you he hasn't been able to change the results with the same set of players for 10 months.

If the fault is the players (I don't believe it but lets say it is), then he needs to use other players, because current form will not get us 6th (think the calculation was at our PPG return over last 10 months we would be 14th)

And again .. why is this a transition season? because we have to bed in 2 potentially very good midfield players and we need to solve a RB issue? or because that is an excuse for brick results?

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm telling you he hasn't been able to change the results with the same set of players for 10 months.

If the fault is the players (I don't believe it but lets say it is), then he needs to use other players, because current form will not get us 6th (think the calculation was at our PPG return over last 10 months we would be 14th)

And again .. why is this a transition season? because we have to bed in 2 potentially very good midfield players and we need to solve a RB issue? or because that is an excuse for brick results?

So losing Toby, Rose, Eriksen, Wanyama, Jan, aurier and replacing them with two new players and a bunch of kids isn't a transition and our results shouldn't dip.
Good luck with that one.

 

[glasgowspur]

Toby isnt peak Toby level, that whole point of argument is a red herring. Whether its debatable or not shouldnt even be part of the conversation.

Drop Toby, play Sanchez. Its that simple.

Sanchez isnt on his best form, but is he worse than Toby? Id say not.
Id say Sanchez is younger and more athletic, and much less likely to be vulnerable to the failings Toby currently is.
Id also say Sanchez will never recover his form unless he actually gets games.
And lastly Id say, if given the choice of two out of form players to persist with, Id play the one that represents the future - not the one that represents the past - and try and develop him through this rough patch into a better player.

So I have to ask, again, how is Toby (for example) an issue that cannot be solved? How is he a problem we are forced to live with? And why isnt it down to the manager to deal with?

I do see sense in what you're saying, but sanchez has played maybe half the games he's available for this season and some of them have been the bad results.
And yet here we are, there's no slack for blooding the next level or the up and coming.
Look at the winks or kwp threads.

 

[SylDave]

I do see sense in what you're saying, but sanchez has played maybe half the games he's available for this season and some of them have been the bad results.
And yet here we are, there's no slack for blooding the next level or the up and coming.
Look at the winks or kwp threads.

The games Sanchez has played he has been on the left next to Alderweireld, he is a different player on the right next to Vertonghen.

Winks is not a DM holding player and is being played out of position.

The full backs are being exposed and made to look worse than they are by the diamond system so it’s hardly fair to judge KWP.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I do see sense in what you're saying, but sanchez has played maybe half the games he's available for this season and some of them have been the bad results.
And yet here we are, there's no slack for blooding the next level or the up and coming.
Look at the winks or kwp threads.

If Toby is out of form, and Sanchez is out of form - whats the difference if we drop Toby? Nobody is going to be clamouring for him to play.

By the same token there are additional considerations with that choice, as Ive said - young vs old. Committed vs uncommitted. The message to the squad.

Either way if the team under performs the fans will complain, makes no odds, but what is the better move from a management point of view? What makes sense for the longevity of the team/squad?

This is where my argument comes from. People speak as though Toby is a problem, as if we have to play him, as if Poch is powerless and unfortunate in this situation.

All Im seeing though is a situation that a manager on his game sorts out as though no big deal. Move out the ageing and uncommitted player, bring in the young one you are (apparently) going to have as a mainstay in your team for the coming years. Work with that player to improve them.

Its exactly the sort of succession we spent £40m+ on Sanchez for.

If thats a fair point to make, and I think it is, then the problem is not Toby, its Poch.

 

[fernadez]

Wouldn't mind my mates evaluating my work performances either.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Article is nonsense … opening statement

Effectively what we are seeing is the irrefutable decay of a squad that should have been recycled, reinvigorated, revitalised, a squad that has been allowed to drift into the footballing crisis it now finds itself in.

This is where I'm not understanding the kind of broad statement that players cannot play at a club for more than a certain length of time (statistical evidence actually suggest it's managers not player that have single club longevity issues)

- Hugo, Kane, Son, Lamela, Eriksen, Rose, Lucas, Davies, Dele, Dier, Aurier (11 first team players) are in or around the prime age for their careers
- Toby & Jan are the senior experienced players that for many years we begged to have in the team
- Winks, Sanchez, Foyth, Tangaga, N'Dombele, Lo Celso are all young, exciting potential, all already with international and PL experience and with exception of Tanganga & Lo Celso (PL)
- Sanchez, Aurier, Lucas, Foyth, N'dombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon are all players added more than half way into Poch's tenure, even if they haven't gotten as much playtime as expected, they are in and around squad.

I ask this again, does anyone believe that the above squad should lose 19 out of the last 41 games? would our fudging B team lose 19 out of 41?

And if Pochettino does go, which big name, knowing what they know, is going to be prepared to grasp this particular nettle?

Again, more flimflam ..

- Spurs has always paid managers well
- You think Jose has been sitting in our games because he likes the new stadium? or the press murmurs are without merit?
- Spurs is a great option, top 4, in CL, great facilities, a very good base team to work with and the knowledge that our ability to spend will go up
- Jose and Allegri are available, any upcoming manager will jump at the chance and we could probably tempt a few established ones from their current clubs.

This again is another one of those myths that ANY club allows a manager complete and free reign on who they want to buy at whatever price/wages (Pep and Zidane have both been told no on occasion by their clubs, Jose was told no at United)

In truth, everyone and every level at the club must take some share of the responsibility.

The one truth in the article, but here's the thing with responsibility, it's starts with the leader

- Levy has come out and said, we didn't get rid of all the players we wanted, we didn't get in all the player we wanted (he owns that)

What I'm missing is Poch saying "we have been on a brick run", "the players lack the right level of motivation/commitment", "we have been fudged over tactically repeatedly" and "it's my fudging job to change that right now" not in January, not when the magic fairy arrives, not when we recover our emotional wellbeing ...

Again, dog chasing it's tail arguement

- Either you believe that Poch has been wronged, unlucky, whatever and that squad listed above is so fudging bad (worse than Harry's team. etc) that losing close to 50% of our games is on par. In which case the crazy solution seems to be ok, the club is going to spend another 200M on players because the lot above are brick.
- Or you accept this team is horrendously underperforming for 10 months, and Poch needs to own that, try something fudging new (not a fudging diamond with overlapping FB's with the same fudging players that haven't been able to make it work for 10+ months) or move on ..

This is the crux of it for me. Some posters seem to be saying that this form is a blip. It’s not a blip. It’s been like this since January. We have won ONE away game this year, and that was against a team no longer in the same division.